How to buy a bizjet? What to look for.
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How to buy a bizjet? What to look for.
Serious question.
The employer of a friend of mine has decided to buy themself a business jet - to carry up to six passengers (normally) anywhere within the United States (although they do own property in Italy,too.
Has set an initial budget (without really thinking about it) of US$ 3 million. Seems to fancy (for no particular reason) a Beechjet 400A (now known as a Hawker 400?).
I had a look at various web sites - but was foxed by the shorthand.
Engines "MSP" (Manufacturers Service programme???)
Time to Check A = 'x' hours (each engine)
Time to Check B.
Time to Check C.
Cycles. (Presumably pressurisation??)
Number of Landings (Undercarriage limitations??).
What are all these about?? What else should one "ask" for when buying a used jet?
The employer of a friend of mine has decided to buy themself a business jet - to carry up to six passengers (normally) anywhere within the United States (although they do own property in Italy,too.
Has set an initial budget (without really thinking about it) of US$ 3 million. Seems to fancy (for no particular reason) a Beechjet 400A (now known as a Hawker 400?).
I had a look at various web sites - but was foxed by the shorthand.
Engines "MSP" (Manufacturers Service programme???)
Time to Check A = 'x' hours (each engine)
Time to Check B.
Time to Check C.
Cycles. (Presumably pressurisation??)
Number of Landings (Undercarriage limitations??).
What are all these about?? What else should one "ask" for when buying a used jet?
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Keygrip...
I've said this many times on here, if the Client can afford a US$3 million acquisition, then they can certainly afford some professional advice on the matter.
Plenty of pitfalls to be avoided.
PM me if you think the Client is serious.
Take some further advice - free of charge - don't go into an acquisition having had a barrowful of information from a bulletin board.
Cheers LGW
I've said this many times on here, if the Client can afford a US$3 million acquisition, then they can certainly afford some professional advice on the matter.
Plenty of pitfalls to be avoided.
PM me if you think the Client is serious.
Take some further advice - free of charge - don't go into an acquisition having had a barrowful of information from a bulletin board.
Cheers LGW
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Already PM'd.
The guy that has been tasked with finding out about aircraft is a good buddy of mine - and we fly together quite a lot.
Problem is that I am a 5,000 hour PISTON guy - and do not want to go wading in there giving advice when I've no idea what the hell I'm talking about.
Of course, we will look for 'professional' advice - but I'm a believer that, if that advice comes from a salesman (or someone who has financial/professional links with a sales outlet), then the advice will be tainted.
I would like to go into the battle with SOME knowledge of what the discussions will entail - and, hopefully, as I'm (probably) not buying a jet from any one of you guys, you'll help a fellow pilot with the basics of the turbine World (of which I know nothing).
The guy that has been tasked with finding out about aircraft is a good buddy of mine - and we fly together quite a lot.
Problem is that I am a 5,000 hour PISTON guy - and do not want to go wading in there giving advice when I've no idea what the hell I'm talking about.
Of course, we will look for 'professional' advice - but I'm a believer that, if that advice comes from a salesman (or someone who has financial/professional links with a sales outlet), then the advice will be tainted.
I would like to go into the battle with SOME knowledge of what the discussions will entail - and, hopefully, as I'm (probably) not buying a jet from any one of you guys, you'll help a fellow pilot with the basics of the turbine World (of which I know nothing).
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HELLO KEYGRIP,
I have never flown a Beechjet, but my boss owned one in the States...he moved his pilots in a Hawker 800XP (lucky Bastards) and I got a CJ2 instaed of the KingAir B200....(nearly as lucky...)
Now what i HEARD about the Beechjet was not so good - but this is only hearsay.
However, parts of your questions can be answered :
MSP= Maintenance service prog, exists in various forms, like gold silver and what have you... bottom line : you buy coverage for your engine - say 100USD per hour and you get guaranteed prices for overhauls and/or free parts - lots of combinations possible.
Time to check a, b, c, or d, time to inspection either on airframe or engine.
Maintenance can be scheduled in various methods.
I´ll explain it on our CJ2 (because I don´t know it for Beechjet)
Cessnas CJ2 has 29 "phases", e.g. Phase 10 is Battery maintenance.
you can schedule these Phases in 3 ways :
Method 1
an inspection every 75 hrs,(Ph1 at 75hrs,Ph2 at 150, Ph3 at 225, Ph4 at 300)
and Phase 5 every 1200 hrs
Method 2
an Inspection every 150 hours combining 2 Phases (Ph1+2 at 150, Ph3+4 at 300)
and Phase 5 every 1200 hrs
Method 3
a Phase b inspection at 150 hrs and Ph1-4 at 300 hrs
and Phase 5 every 1200 hrs
All the others are to be done in the intervals prescribed (e.g. phase 20 every 12 years, Phase 22 every 10000hrs)
Then there are cycle limited parts, mainly in the engines.
Which is no problem, if the engine was never opened up before you buy it, because you can look into the engine log and maintenance manual and you can find out how many cycles are left.
If the engines or maybe only one engine was opened and repaired, say for a birdstrike, thinks CAN be very complicated :
one could use on a 10 hour engine one part that has only 100 cycles left to its limit. If you fly 10 hrs per cycle, you have 1000hrs left - if you fly 30 minutes per cycle its only 50 hrs....
The engines time to HSI would be 1500-10=1490 hrs and to overhaul 3000-10 2990 hrs, however it would have to the shop after the 100 cycles are used up.
So, for once I´m with LGW - take advice, but make sure the advicer has to stand for possible mistakes - they can cost a fortune.
A very good help are programmes that trace every single action taken on an aircraft.
Cessna calls it Cescom - you tell them the hrs and cycles, the maintenance shop tells them what they have done (called Manitenance transaction report) and you receive a monthly report on what to do next and in future, also it gives an adequate overview an MSB´s and SB´s. Very recently they annonced it would work via internet - so you can be up to date virtually anytime.
I think, Beech/Hawker/Raytheon calls the programm STARS.
Hope that helped a bit....
I have never flown a Beechjet, but my boss owned one in the States...he moved his pilots in a Hawker 800XP (lucky Bastards) and I got a CJ2 instaed of the KingAir B200....(nearly as lucky...)
Now what i HEARD about the Beechjet was not so good - but this is only hearsay.
However, parts of your questions can be answered :
MSP= Maintenance service prog, exists in various forms, like gold silver and what have you... bottom line : you buy coverage for your engine - say 100USD per hour and you get guaranteed prices for overhauls and/or free parts - lots of combinations possible.
Time to check a, b, c, or d, time to inspection either on airframe or engine.
Maintenance can be scheduled in various methods.
I´ll explain it on our CJ2 (because I don´t know it for Beechjet)
Cessnas CJ2 has 29 "phases", e.g. Phase 10 is Battery maintenance.
you can schedule these Phases in 3 ways :
Method 1
an inspection every 75 hrs,(Ph1 at 75hrs,Ph2 at 150, Ph3 at 225, Ph4 at 300)
and Phase 5 every 1200 hrs
Method 2
an Inspection every 150 hours combining 2 Phases (Ph1+2 at 150, Ph3+4 at 300)
and Phase 5 every 1200 hrs
Method 3
a Phase b inspection at 150 hrs and Ph1-4 at 300 hrs
and Phase 5 every 1200 hrs
All the others are to be done in the intervals prescribed (e.g. phase 20 every 12 years, Phase 22 every 10000hrs)
Then there are cycle limited parts, mainly in the engines.
Which is no problem, if the engine was never opened up before you buy it, because you can look into the engine log and maintenance manual and you can find out how many cycles are left.
If the engines or maybe only one engine was opened and repaired, say for a birdstrike, thinks CAN be very complicated :
one could use on a 10 hour engine one part that has only 100 cycles left to its limit. If you fly 10 hrs per cycle, you have 1000hrs left - if you fly 30 minutes per cycle its only 50 hrs....
The engines time to HSI would be 1500-10=1490 hrs and to overhaul 3000-10 2990 hrs, however it would have to the shop after the 100 cycles are used up.
So, for once I´m with LGW - take advice, but make sure the advicer has to stand for possible mistakes - they can cost a fortune.
A very good help are programmes that trace every single action taken on an aircraft.
Cessna calls it Cescom - you tell them the hrs and cycles, the maintenance shop tells them what they have done (called Manitenance transaction report) and you receive a monthly report on what to do next and in future, also it gives an adequate overview an MSB´s and SB´s. Very recently they annonced it would work via internet - so you can be up to date virtually anytime.
I think, Beech/Hawker/Raytheon calls the programm STARS.
Hope that helped a bit....
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As with all aircraft acquisitions..........First define your requirement.
"I want a jet" is NOT a requirement
Max/average passengers, one or two crew, max/average distance, number of trips per/week/month/year, local airfield facilities (length of runways etc), local maintenance availability/expertise........
You already have a max buying budget. What about a running budget?
How about considering a few minutes more in the back of a KingAir for saving a bucketload of dollars? And maybe getting much more range?
Maybe fractional ownership is the best way to go?
Try looking here for some advice on buying and owning corporate aircraft - they are not trying to sell you one!
"I want a jet" is NOT a requirement
Max/average passengers, one or two crew, max/average distance, number of trips per/week/month/year, local airfield facilities (length of runways etc), local maintenance availability/expertise........
You already have a max buying budget. What about a running budget?
How about considering a few minutes more in the back of a KingAir for saving a bucketload of dollars? And maybe getting much more range?
Maybe fractional ownership is the best way to go?
Try looking here for some advice on buying and owning corporate aircraft - they are not trying to sell you one!
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Hire a professional broker!
I just bought my second Learjet, and it's too complicated to put on a post here, so I won't even try.
BTW, a Hawker400 has absolutely nothing to do with a beechjet 400, they are completely different airplanes
I just bought my second Learjet, and it's too complicated to put on a post here, so I won't even try.
BTW, a Hawker400 has absolutely nothing to do with a beechjet 400, they are completely different airplanes
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As Hawker Rider says beware. Raytheon renamed the BeechJet 400 to Hawker 400XP in May 2003.
As there already exists a the Hawker, HS125- 400 This is a prime case for error probably caused by the marketing people. Totally different aircraft
Try this for more info http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/beechjet/
ME
As there already exists a the Hawker, HS125- 400 This is a prime case for error probably caused by the marketing people. Totally different aircraft
Try this for more info http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/beechjet/
ME
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I wished I had those tips earlier ....
My boss wanted to buy a turboprop toy since 2 years . For some reason we couldn't buy a Piper Cheyenne II or a TBM700 .
That was a last minute change of mind of the Cheyenne owner which stopped the deal ... An expensive change of mind since we had asked for a complete inspection by a Cheyenne's specialist -(10 000 Euros, I think )
Since my boss was desperatly needing an A/C, he finally bought a Kingair, WITHOUT performing a pre-purchase inspection(A/C was so beautiful ...and so cheap )... And here we are :
In 2 months, the A/C was 1 month AOG for various maintenance reason, all of them were totally predictible ... Had we asked a mechanic to look in the maintenance manual, he would have immediately spotted the coming maintenance issues ... But as my boss said "I couldn't afford another 10.000 Euros pre-purchase inspection"
Am not addicted to financial figures, but I am able to perform basic mathematics , like additions ... when I sum up the maintenance bills we had in 2 months, I reach the fascinating amount of 30.000 Euros ....
well, I guess he can afford that.
My boss wanted to buy a turboprop toy since 2 years . For some reason we couldn't buy a Piper Cheyenne II or a TBM700 .
That was a last minute change of mind of the Cheyenne owner which stopped the deal ... An expensive change of mind since we had asked for a complete inspection by a Cheyenne's specialist -(10 000 Euros, I think )
Since my boss was desperatly needing an A/C, he finally bought a Kingair, WITHOUT performing a pre-purchase inspection(A/C was so beautiful ...and so cheap )... And here we are :
In 2 months, the A/C was 1 month AOG for various maintenance reason, all of them were totally predictible ... Had we asked a mechanic to look in the maintenance manual, he would have immediately spotted the coming maintenance issues ... But as my boss said "I couldn't afford another 10.000 Euros pre-purchase inspection"
Am not addicted to financial figures, but I am able to perform basic mathematics , like additions ... when I sum up the maintenance bills we had in 2 months, I reach the fascinating amount of 30.000 Euros ....
well, I guess he can afford that.
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A good starting point would be to pick up a copy of Business & Commercial Aviation's August 2003 edition, it contains an excellent "Operations Planning Guide". It is really based on North American operations but will give you comparative figures for the various types.
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Thanks for all the responses - including the personal e-mails and messages.
The planned purchase seems to be continuing - but despite all the warnings given to the multi millionaire lady purchaser, she seems to be taking the advice of her millionaire boyfriend...........because he has a PPL and owns a Piper Saratoga.....and has about 200 hours of experience (and appears, by default, to know exactly what to do - first thing was get a glossy magazine full of "for sale" ads and look for something exciting).
Oh, well. We tried to be helpful.
<<edit: typo>>
The planned purchase seems to be continuing - but despite all the warnings given to the multi millionaire lady purchaser, she seems to be taking the advice of her millionaire boyfriend...........because he has a PPL and owns a Piper Saratoga.....and has about 200 hours of experience (and appears, by default, to know exactly what to do - first thing was get a glossy magazine full of "for sale" ads and look for something exciting).
Oh, well. We tried to be helpful.
<<edit: typo>>
Last edited by Keygrip; 21st Oct 2003 at 06:58.
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Oh Dear !
I know exactly what's going on !
I'll bet they'll find a cheap CJ ....with plenty of work to be planned !
I can hear the comment of your lady millionnaire friend :
"The curtains are nice"
I know exactly what's going on !
I'll bet they'll find a cheap CJ ....with plenty of work to be planned !
I can hear the comment of your lady millionnaire friend :
"The curtains are nice"
