De Havilland Comet C2 "Sagittarius" XK699
 

It has been confirmed that RAF Lyneham is to close and I would like to raise the question - what will become of the Comet Gate Guardian? This fine example of British achievment is already in a barely maintained condition and I fear that it could easily end up a victim of the cutters torch as the money supply for the domed unit dries up and precious resources are diverted to more needy projects.

As soon as timescales for closure are announced, I hope somebody will decide this rare jetliner has to be preserved and the wheels of transportation and preservation will grind swiftly into action.

Your thoughts please?

Interesting point this and I too fear that a JCB awaits its turn. FWIW I would like to see a sponsor or council take it over and leave it exactly where it is now. I am sure that the inevitable industrial development could work around it and it would serve as an appropriate memory to the base.

T_M

As there is already a Comet at the Science Museums out station at Wroughton not a million miles away from Lyneham, I fear that unless sombody makes an active bid to save it, this aircraft is pretty much doomed to an ignominious end:(

And the DAK memorial to air dispatchers, it was only moved there last year.

According to the book "RAF gate guards" this jet is owned by the RAF Museum and is on loan at Lyneham, so there's some hope.

HTH,

Mark

Ins't it a Comet 2 rather than the 4s that are preserved elsewhere? If so, a more interesting airframe.

Perhaps it should be move to Brize also if logistically possible? IIRC it was moved from Wyton to Lyneham by road a few years back.

If I remember correctly the Lyneham Comet was in storage at Henlow prior to its move. I was refurbished at Lyneham around 1987/88. It was decided that all members of the Station should contribute to the stripping of the airframe of paint. Various squadrons/sections were allocated areas to work on. I claim a few square feet just aft of the cockpit, port side.

I also recall some cock up regarding the nameplate. It was unveiled by Princess Ann who had recently been given the title “The Princess Royal.” There was some embarrassment that this was missed, but she said she didn’t mind.

I may be wrong but there is a Mk 2 RC (XK 695) at Duxford.

XK695 at Duxford
 

XK695 c/n 06030 was on display at Duxford years ago. It was broken up in October 1992. The fuselage then went to RAF Newton which was then later completely scrapped in 1995. The nose was saved and was at a scrap yard in Essex for a time. The nose is now at the Mosquito museum, London Colney having arrived there 17th Dec 1995.

Hope this helps

Correct Molesworth, my memory is faulty... bit of Googling, the one at Wyton was scrapped in 1987.

The one at Lyneham must be preserved - as far as I can tellit is the only complete survivor.

Treadders.

Thanks 26451, I was mislead by a site called spyflight.co.uk into thinking that XK695 was still at Duxford. I can remember myself and TM going down to Duxford about 1979 and having a nose around her. Knowing me I will still have the free leaflet…somewhere. What’s quite disturbing (for me) is that I was at Newton between 92 and 94 and I didn’t know that that fuselage was there.

Perhaps the new display planned for Cosford will create some space for the C2?

Well after all the initial media hype, it appears that Lyneham has got at least another 9 years before closure!

But the replies on this thread have got me thinking, and I have come to the conclusion that talk is indeed cheap and it is time my actions became louder than words.

If it is the last remaining Comet 2, then it probably needs intervention soon to stop it degrading to a point where it is only fit for scrapping. But where do I start? I currently serve at Lyneham and having made some phone calls today, there is a willingness to preserve the airframe, but at no cost to the unit or MOD etc. I should imagine the first thing to do would be to carry out a survey and see what needs doing, but as it isn't one of Mr Lockheed's classic Hercules I have to be honest and say I wouldn't know where to begin.

I am a complete novice in the area of aircraft preservation, so if there is anybody out there who could give me any hints or pointers as to where to start and how best to tackle the project, please either reply on this thread, or PM me. Also if anybody knows of any good sites or books which will enable me to research the aircrafts past, please point me their way.

Thanks in advance!!

Nobody has mentioned, that XK695, was originally a B.O.A.C. aircraft, registered as G-GAPY (I think, I've lost my records) and which finished its flying life on 51 Squadron at Wyton. XK659, XK655 and XK671 were also on the squadron (I may have the prefix letters wrong, but the numbers are correct).

I remember, that during servicing, the B.O.A.C registration was clearly marked in many inaccessible areas of all four Comets. Flew in all of them many times.

You've probably had some PMs on this, country calls, but fradu is correct about the ownership of Saggy 699. She actually belongs to the RAF Museum Reserve Collection (RC). This has moved around a bit in recent years due to the depressingly continuous closures, such as Cardington, their former home. They are now at RAF Stafford but come under the jurisdiction of RAFM Cosford, as far as I know, and you should be able to contact them on 01902 376200.

699 is indeed the last "complete" Mk2 in existence and it is a shame if she does not have a dedicated group of volunteers taking care of her. As a dedicated preservationist in a slightly different field of transport, I can tell you that what you need is enthusiasts and donors in great numbers! When I was at LYE in April she was looking a little weathered but I put that down to the winter. Surely someone gives her a bit of TLC once a year for AOC's, or don't they do that any more? Anyway, I suggest you check with the owners for starters. I can't believe they intend her to go to scrap.

History-wise, 216 Sqn started accepting Comet 2s at LYE in July '56. The first 11 were earmarked for BOAC but none saw commercial service (re: Lukeafb1's post), and instead went to the RAF. After the ill-fated Comet 1s, BOAC waited for the Mk4s. XK699, the last of the "BOAC Mk2s", was built in '56 as G-AMXM, first flew on 02 Feb 57, and was delivered to (I think) 216 on 22 Feb - although I'm not sure whether the Testies had to try and bend any first, proir to Sqn delivery, as they did with our C130 Mk3 a couple of decades later!

The last C2 left LYE in '67. Perhaps Lukeafb1 can fill in here on any subsequent service with 51, which I believe went on into the '70s. For the record, the civil reggies for the Mk2s were, G-AMXA - M, and all became XKnnn, except 'D (XN453) and 'K (XV144) which were 2Es.

Anyway returning to topic, as you say, cc, you still have a bit of time in hand. Most restoration projects start after the event! There's no time like the present and I hope you gather a loyal following, bearing in mind that many will have more pressing worries to contend with. Let us know how you get on.

DrSyn,

Bow to your knowledge on the origin of the 51 Comets. All 4 of them had numerous chinagraph or paint BOAC markings, which were, I assume from what you have said, appended during manufacture. I assumed that they were ex-BOAC. As far as I can remember, the four a/c mentioned, all appeared on 51 around 1960/61, although it might have been earlier. XK 671 was the only one of the four which was kept in its original commercial configuration and used to ferry squadron personnel around the globe.

Happy days!

Correction
 

Having made a few calls after this thread went rather quiet :(, I have a correction to my above post. I got in touch with The Museum and they also were uncertain initially about 699's ownership. I have now been assured that she was only loaned to the RAFMRC by the RAF Historic Collection (DLO - RAF Wyton) who remain the true owners.

If you are still following the thread you started, country calls, email or PM me and I will pass on the name and number you should call for further info, as they are not directly in the public domain. If you have already contacted the "owners" successfully, and have everything in hand, perhaps you could make a suitable post here to that effect and I'll get back to preserving locos!

However, I am sure there are many (497 views now) who would be interested to follow the progress of the Comet, as she is going to need TLC long before, and if, Lyneham winds down.

Lukeafb1, interesting info. I expect the 51 Sqn history would reveal which, if any, airframes went directly to your unit and which were handed on. I only remember that they were still around during my early service and quite a thrill to see in action, for those of us who appreciated that sort of thing.

Comet 2
 

Having watched the thread with great interest, I thought I'd add my two pennorth if you are interested.

The first two aircraft were originally designated T2s (XK669 and XK670) and were delivered to Lyneham in June 56. these were quickly followed by eight C2s with a beefed up floor. XK671, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 715 and 716.

By today's standards they were pretty primitive, no reverse thrust and the only pilot interpreted nav aids were two coffee grinder ADFs and a fairly early cloud radar which could pick up islands and coastlines. No VORs - there weren't any in the UK and no DME, just NDBs. The Nav had Gee Mk3, a sextant and an API. Most instrument landings were off a GCA. But straight up to about FL350ish and then drift up to FL450 by the TOD with a .74M cruise.

Remember no upper airways and the ony traffic up there was military jet. Not even the 707 was around in Europe in the late 50s. The captains were all experienced piston Transport guys and all the 2nd pilots had done at least a tour on jets. Originally we had four co-pilots on strength to cope with captain wastage (Comet only lifed at 5 years in the early days) and about 21 2nd pilots who were not "catted" on type. In other words, any hands on flying was purely a captain's decision.

However we had THREE Meteor 7s on 216 for the 2nd pilots to fly in our spare time and to maintain our jet IRs. Comet routes, apart from the bread and butter stuff to Changi and Adelaide was pretty well world wide. Happy days of a big pink map.

Check: Straight-jacket: - Off
 

Splendid post, Bof. It's a rare priviledge to be in at the beginning of a new era and you obviously had that. Imagine, these days, anyone keeping 3 spare Meatboxes to allow the "youngsters" to maintain their skills in their spare time. With all the routes that were opening up at the time you must have been falling over each other for a tour on 216!

It is interesting what you say about the original 5-year life of the Comet 2. As far as I can tell, 51 Sqn flew its last one (XK695) until 21 Jan 75, which was only 7 months before 216's shiny Mk4s were sold-off to Dan-Air as part of the great Purge of '75 :sad:. Only the nose of 695 exists now, making 699 the sole complete airframe and therefore worthy of preservation - IMHO.

Lukeafb1, I've had a look through the records and, as with most Brit transports, it's all a bit complicated because there were so few airframes produced, and some (eg: 2Es) were used for R&D or modified (at Marshall's) before delivery. The grounding of the Mk1s after BOAC YP's demise, while the early 2s were in production, adds to the complexity. For example, the early models re-allocated for RAF recce did not require the higher cabin pressurisation of the C2s destined for 216. Anyway, delivery sequence goes something like this.

216 Sqn
216 received 10 x Mk2s, fairly swiftly, between Jun '56 and May '57. They were, XK-> 670 [Corvus], 669 [Taurus], 671 [Aquila], 695 [Perseus], 696 [Orion], 697 [Cygnus], 698 [Pegasus], 699 [Saggitarius], 716 [Cepheus], 715 [Columba]. As Bof says, the first two were T2s, later reinforced to C2 standard. Perhaps their naming after stellar constellations illustrates the paucity of radio aids and the importance of Navs and sextants in those days!

192 Sqn (became, 21 Aug 58) 51 Sqn
3 x Mk2R (or "RCMs") were delivered to 192 Sqn in this order: XK-> 663 [Apr '57], 659 [Jul '57] and 655 [Apr '58]. 663 was destroyed in a hangar fire at Watton 13 Sep 57 and therefore did not serve on 51, although listed as such elsewhere (even the official records are dubious here - personal memory anyone?). 216 Sqn started equipping with (5x) C4s in 1962 and passed on a further 4 x C2s to 51 Sqn, thus: 715 [May '62], 671 [Sep '62], 695 [Mar '63] and 697 [Mar '67].

And just to return to the original topic ( :rolleyes: ) XK699 Saggitarius
Saggy 699 indeed arrived at Lyneham on 22 Feb 57 and served on 216 until being ferried to Henlow (didn't they preserve a TSR2 there in spite of Wilson?) on 16 Jun 67 and, much later, by road back to LYE! I am guessing that it may also have been the last 216 C2 at Lyneham, but 51 Sqn's continued to appear there sporadically during the early '70s as far as I remember. I also note that she clipped a tree with her starboard wing on approach to Turnhouse in Aug '58 (the mind boggles) but returned to service the following month.

Must dash. Matron's doing her night round.

DrSyn,

Although not a personal memory (I arrived at Watton in May 62), the 663 fire was still a hot (?) topic of conversation when I got there.

Apparently, the story goes, that the duty key orderly forgot to turn off the main hanger power. 663 was undergoing (unspecified) major modification in 4 hanger and a lead lamp was left live in the a/c. During the early evening, it ignited some part of the fuselage near the rear entrance door. The fire smouldered all night, gradually getting more severe, but still only smouldering. Apparently, the lack of available air in the sealed hangar, contributed to the smouldering, rather than a full fire. By the morning, the aircraft was virtually totally destroyed internally. Regular fire picket patrols, (because of lack of appreciable flames) failed to notice anything amiss. In their defence, they only patrolled the hangars externally and therefore the interior of the actual hangar floor space was out of vision. I actually knew one of the pickets on duty that night.

When the hanger was opened in the morning, the influx of air caused the whole fuselage to burst into flames, the nose undercarriage collapsed and the tail assembly punched a hole in the roof. The tail assembly then snapped off. As you said, the aircraft was destroyed.

An edited afterthought - I think I'm right in saying, that 663 was officially assigned to 51 and may have flown a few sorties on the squadron. The fire occured when it was being modified to 51 requirements.

Are you sure that you have the date of the fire correct? I know its in the dim and distant past, but I thought that the fire happened only a year or so, before I joined the squadron. Certainly I was not aware, when the story was (repeatedly) recalled, that it was all of 5 years before.

Great stuff, Lukeafb1. As I said, there seemed to be some doubt about the date, and your recollection would seem to favour an alternative of 3 Jun 59. This would have put 663 on 51 Sqn for the best part of a year. As jet transports were an expensive rarity at that time, I am quite sure it would have remained a hot topic for ages, if not indeed a legend.

I note from the front page of one of the Comet websites, that one of your possible contemporaries was present at the time and posted a correction to the location of the mishap. I wish he'd mentioned the date! There's another page here which might interest you and which also shows the above date. Although this page is not entirely accurate, I reckon you must be right.

I would imagine that, in view of 51's rôle, the incident would have been kept fairly low-key at the time. It is strange that there should be almost a 2-year discrepancy, however. Such is the nature of PPRuNe, no doubt someone who was on the scene will pop-up with positive confirmation before long :) It's certainly revived my historical interest in the aircraft and the last survivor.

Shame they don't have F540s on line yet!

And there's a taxyable Comet at Bruntingthorpe...

Dr Syn - I can't swear that XK699 was the Comet I saw, but there was certainly A Comet in the T2 hangar on the north side of RAF Henlow in the eighties. Herts / Bucks Wing Air Training Corps used to hold their Wing Field Days there, and I remember moving round various stands to complete various tasks, including one inside the T2 hangar, where the not insignificant bulk of a Comet was standing, albeit partially covered so I never saw the identity. By the size of her, and relative height, I'd say she had her nosewheel extended and the back end on trestles.

By an odd coincidence, and unbeknown to me at the time, the ex-Halton Beaufighter I was later to work on was also in there at the time, this was just before Tim Moore acquired her in 1987. Funny how how things turn out.

As for a TSR2 being at Henlow, I don't know which one it was, but there definately was one there at some point. I saw various pictures of it about a year ago on the Flypast forum. There was quite a funny story attached to that, but for the life of me I can't remember it just now...

Back to XK699, I really do hope something can be done to preserve her. Over the years we've mourned so many truly historic airframes - Gibson's Lancaster ED932 (scrapped 1946), the last Halifax (scrapped Radlett 1960-something), the last Hampden (scrapped Bicester 1950-something). Don't let XK699 be the next....

BeauMan
The TSR2 at Henlow was XR 220, which was moved to Cosford in 1974, see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...highlight=tsr2

Flight Engineer's Log -

1955

G-AMXE Comet 2

18th July 1955 saw the first flight of G-AMXE which lasted 40 minutes. Then on the same day a 25 minute hop was made to Cambridge where XE was converted to 2R specification, by Marshall’s of Cambridge, for signals duties. (R = Reconnaissance). This aircraft was re-registered as XK663 and allocated to RAF192 Sqd.

Converted to 2R it joined RAF 192 Sqn as XK663 in April 1957.

1957

XK663 Comet 2 (Log. entry reads:T.Mk2 90 Group)

From 22nd February XK663 underwent schedule testing with particular attention being paid to the 112 volt electrical system, Bullet de-icing, radar checks, checks on cabin temperature, performance checks and auto-trim evaluation. These checks were completed by the 21st March after twelve flights.

On 22nd March Dave Davies (ARB) took a 2hr. 45 flight. Minor problems were detected and these were later rectified. Peter Buggé did a final 35min. check flight the following day. Certificate granted XK663 was handed over to 192 Sqd. on 19th April.

Mysteriously on 13th September this aircraft was destroyed in hanger fire.

UK serials:
06027XK663 Comet C(RCM).2: f/f 18/07/1955, ex G-AMXE n.t.u, d/d 18/04/1957, w/o 13/09/1957.

Unfortunately, ORAC, it is not clear from that record, contained in the Comet site I linked above, whether E Young (the F/E) or D Young (the site author) inserted that info at a later date. From a historian's perspective it is not definitive, alas. Even the ASN ventures both dates, as per previous posts. What is needed is someone who "was there", or somone who can check the 540s. I remain sure in the best traditions of PPRuNE (which includes us all going wildly off-topic :) ), the true answer will emerge!

Anybody,

Out of curiosity, why, after XK695 was assigned to the RAF Museum at Duxford (saw it there a couple of times years ago), would it have been removed and scrapped? Seems to go against the whole ethos of "museum".

XK695 was the only aircraft which I was intimately associated with, which was preserved.

Cor, I've just realised, this is my 100th post. Its only taken 3 years!!

Just a quick update, as I have been away downroute and haven't had chance to keep you all updated with my progress.

I had a look round the aircraft and without going inside or examining it in any great detail it still seems reasonably sound, just in need of some TLC really. It looks quite shabby as it is parked near some trees and the sap and algae etc is fairly inground into the paint. I looked into using detergent based cleaners, and it is unfortunately a non=starter as the resulting run off would cause an environment problem, if it got into the watercourse. I did think of enlisting the help of an ATC Sqn to get stuck in with scrubbing brushes but I fear it would damage the paintfinish too much. When I suggested cutting the offending trees down, you can imagine the response!

Thanks for all the replies on this thread and let me assure you it is not going away, something needs to be done and I am probably ideally placed to do it.

Dr Syn, thanks for the offer and an email will be winging to you soon.

CC

Just a quick update to keep this thread riding high.

I am still in the process of tracking down the hapless individual at Lyneham who has signed for 699 and all I am saying on that is, you can run but you can't hide!!

Saggy does get washed. Evidently there is a contract for the airframe to be washed once a year, and the chap who deals with it tells me that when she gets a bit green about the gills, a team goes down and do the biz.

The next bit of good news is an engineer with experience on Comets has offered me his help to do a survey of the structure. The company is sending me first to the Falklands and then to the USA, but we reckon the survey will take place in late Oct or early Nov this year.

As a funny aside, anyone I have spoken to about Saggy's general condition (and there have been a few) has come out with the same phrase: " You know the floors F :mad: ed don't you?" Guys(and one gal), I think I've got the message thanks!!

Stay Tuned Folks

CC

Lukeafb1 - Sadly it's not the only rare airframe Duxford have scrapped, and they have the Shackleton in their sights for the chop treatment next (though some bits will then be kept as an 'interactive exhibit').

As both Hendon and Cosford have also scrapped airframes whose rarity value approaches that of the proverbial rocking horse droppings, it would appear significant airframes have safer futures in independent museums rather than with large institutions such as the IWM, RAF Museum... or MoD!

Just to keep the topic riding high, I am pleased to report that the wheels are still in motion albeit very slowly. As soon as I get any more news I will let you all know.

Until then, I am wondering if anyone who has made posts regarding Saggy's chequered history, would mind if I used the info as a basis for an article I am planning to write for the Lyneham Staion Magazine?

As I understand it, the Duxford Comet 2 was "too far gone due to corrosion in and around the undercarriage structire" to be worth saving. The fact that they have a Comet 4 as well might have led to a choice having to be made. That one's restoration is progressing, albeit slowly.

Ozplane,

Shouldn't that quote really read, ".....through neglect we've allowed the corrosion to become too bad................"

It was the same at Hendon with the Beverley, these things fly in and are then left to rot. If they can't look after them properly then they shouldn't be allowed to have them.

Can those who visit this Forum and are making efforts to 'save' XK699 drop me a PM.


regards

tc

Edit: This can continue here OK but we are not allowing a linked 'campaign.'

Entry of the Comet 2C into the RAF.
Extracts from memoirs with apologies for the length of the post.

In August 1956 I was selected as one of a team of three pilots to do RAF acceptance trials on the deHavilland Comet 2C. The Comet 1 was the first commercial jet aircraft and had first flown on 27 July 1949. Sqn Ldr Peter Baker was the team leader and Flt Lt Geoff Fletcher the other pilot. Peter later teamed up wit Brian Trubshaw as the initial test pilots on the Concord. Geof later became the RAF's test pilot on the proposed F111K. Together with flight engineers, we studied pilots' notes and determined the essential data to be able to fly the Comet with minimum conversion time. Approach speeds, minimum control speeds, emergency systems operation and limitations were all consigned to one's memory.

On 13 August 1956 someone flew Peter Baker to Hatfield where he was to join a company pilot to fly Comet No 669 back to Boscombe Down. Peter arranged, before departure, that he would taxi in to the Boscombe Down tarmac to off-load the company pilot and at the same time I would climb aboard to occupy the right seat. Peter had watched a circuit, flown by the company pilot, at Hatfield and had then changed seats to become Captain for the flight back to Boscombe Down.

I passed the company pilot, with a nod of the head, on the steps and that was the last we saw of him as he headed back to Hatfield. Seeing the cockpit of the Comet for the first time was interesting enough but to climb immediately into the right seat and start taxying was a challenge which I enjoyed. Peter flew one circuit and we changed seats. I then flew a circuit, taxied in to the flight line where Peter exited and Geoff Fletcher joined me to sit in the right seat. I showed him a circuit and we then changed seats. He then flew his first circuit, after which we parked the aircraft. That was the completion of our conversion. Flights to follow were to be devoted to a 100 flying hour coverage of all aspects of aircraft handling, with a few performance checks included. Something not recalled caused 669 to disappear from the scene soon after and we continued flight testing on 671.

Later that day, Peter and I flew 2.45 hrs assessing handling characteristics.

The Comet 2C was a modified Comet 1, having been fitted with drooped leading edges to its wings and structural improvements to its fuselage. To me, the tail looked to be too small in area. This showed up as inadequate directional stability, particularly in the landing configuration. The triplicated powered flying control systems, being the first for a civil airliner were terrible. Direct simple spring feel gave no sense of indicated air speed. High break out forces made it impossible to fly smoothly without resorting to unusual ways of inserting flying control inputs. The breakout force on the elevators was 5 pnds, on the ailerons 12 pnds and on the rudders a massive 35 pnds. Imagine trying to drive a car in which you have to exert a force to the steering wheel of 5 pnds before you can achieve any steering wheel movement.

We soon found that the large elevator trim wheel, conveniently positioned beside the centre console, was easier to use than the control column. Small movements of the trim wheel were a good substitute to battling one's way through that 5 pnd breakout force each time the elevator needed a nudge. Our harsh criticism of the flying control feel systems caused a redesign of those systems to incorporate "Q feel", which I understand was a vast improvement. Q feel provides a pilot with a feel variable with indicated air speed.

On 4 September I flew tests to measure rates of roll and oscilliatory stability in Comet 671. Ray Bray was my copilot and Jock Cowan the navigator and special instrumentation operator. A couple of visitors from the Test Pilots' School came along for the ride. A trace recorder had been installed to record the test results. The weather forecast had cloud from 8,000 ft to 22,000 ft.

Measuring rates of roll involves rolling the aircraft into a 90 degree bank then applying full aileron to roll at maximum rate through to 90 degrees the other way. This was to be repeated many times at differing air speeds, mach number and configurations. These gyrations are somewhat sickening to those not directly involved in control. My stomach never lost its sensitivity to abnormal manoeurvres and I was ready to call a halt, particularly when I noticed the odd sick-bag appearing. Also my arms were becoming fatigued. So at 30,000 ft I called Boscombe Down VHF radio direction finder for a course to steer to base. I was given a north westerly heading and turned the aircraft on to that heading. I had reasoned that the Comet would be roughly in the same block of air in which we had started our rolls about an hour before and that we would not be far from base.

I started a moderate rate of descent and climbed out of the seat to give one of the visiting pilots a chance to handle the aircraft. My directions to him were to descend to break through cloud base and to hold level when clear. This gave me the opportunity to wander around the rear fuselage and assess such things as the noise levels and vibrations of the airframe. On returning to the flight deck, I could see that we were beneath cloud at 9,000 ft. Jock Cowan, the navigator, had a map in his hand and was peering intently at the terain. Plugging into intercom, I jokingly said "What's with this map reading Jock ? Don't you know how to work the G set ?"

He said something to indicate that the G set was no damned good and had refused to indicate properly. He had been operating the instrumentation recorders and now had no idea where we were. I asked whether anyone had called Boscombe VHF/DF. Many calls had been made and it was assumed that there had been some failure of Boscombe facilities as they could not be heard on any of the usual frequencies. We made contact with other aircraft to check our own radios.

About this time, we could see a coast line approaching. We all assumed that we could now only be approaching the coast of the Bristol Channel, having over-flown Boscombe Down. We flew over the coast and Jock tried to match what he could see with the map. He wasn't having much success until someone said, "That little town down there looks like Illfracoombe, so that must be the Bristol Channel." On the assumption that it was Illfracoombe, Jock came up with a rough heading of 090 to fly to base.

We settled on that heading for a while. Jock and I conferred and we made further attempts at map reading. Wishing to take command of the situation I resumed the left seat so that I could more readily operate the radios. I changed radio frequency to 121.5 Mhz, the international distress frequency. Almost immediately, I heard an aircraft talking to Martlesham Heath which I knew to be an airfield on the E coast of England. When I could get a word in edgeways, I called Martlesham Heath with a "Do you read ?". The answer was affirmative so I then requested a true bearing. The DF operator came back with 135 degrees. I could hardly believe this so I requested a confirmation. The bearing was confirmed.

There we were heading East, somewhere over France. Whew ! Martlesham Heath requested our aircraft type, flight conditions and type. After responding, we were asked if we needed emergency assistance. I declined and commenced a climb back up to 30,000 ft to conserve our dwindling fuel. During the climb, we went through the radio horizon for Boscombe Down VHF and soon had new courses to steer to take us back to England. We had no IFF and I was half expecting an intercept by French fighters. None appeared and I never did hear whether they had us on radar.

We cruised for some time before getting back into the UK G chain, allowing the Navigator to accurately establish our position. The rest was routine, except for a distinct feeling of having egg on our faces. We had penetrated a jet stream at our higher altitudes and this had blown us well into France, before I started that first descent. The coast line we had come across was the west coast of France. The G set would not work for Jock because we were out of range of the particular G chain extending only over England. This was the worst case of uncertainty of position that I had ever experienced.


Some days later, I flew a measured take-off in the Comet to determine the extent by which the drooped wing leading edges had reduced high incidence drag during take off. Two Comet 1s had been lost during civil operations from Cairo and Karachi airports whilst attempting take-offs in high temperature conditions. Pilots, unused to slow acceleration with heavy aircraft in high temperature conditions, had rotated excessively nose high too early in their take-off rolls. The thrust from the engines was inadequte, under these conditions, to accelerate the aircraft to a lift off in the remaining runway lengths available.

I calculated, very carefully, that on a runway of 11,000 feet I could try for an exaggerated nose high attitude as soon as there was enough elevator power, measure the acceleration in this attitude for 5,000 ft and if inadequate, lower the nose to accelerate normally to a lift off speed over the remaining length of runway.

The Comet had a small tail-wheel projecting a little from below the rear fuselage to prevent damage if the fuselage should ever get too close to the ground. This occurred at about 20 degrees nose-up.

For my take off, to be made at maximum weight, I had a mobile unit with a radio positioned along the runway to advise me just how close the little tail wheel was to the runway surface during my exaggerated nose high take off. I started the take off with the control column firmly against its rear stops. The nose came surging up at about 65 Kts and I was able to adjust nose angle to achieve about 1 foot tail wheel clearance. As I rotated, the audible stall warning sounded and a rudder shaker operated as expected. I persisted, noting a slower than normal acceleration. Assessing that the acceleration would be adequate to reach lift-off without lowering the nose, we lumbered into the air with runway to spare. The stall warning and shaker continued for a period until speed exceeded the stalling speed by 20%.

Calculations showed that the drooped leading edges had been effective in substantially lowering high incidence drag and that it was now likely that only gross diversions from the recommended take-off procedures, which now included a rotate speed, could result in any repeats of the previous disasters.

Another unusual trial in the Comet was made on the ground. This involved pressurising the aircraft to a full design overpressure. The trial was a carry over from the investigations into Comet fuselage fatigue failures. Engineers wanted some measurements of fuselage distortion, so we sat in the aircraft with engines running and artificially pressured the fuselage to about a 9 psi over-pressure. At a total air pressure of 23.7 psi, I could not detect any physiological differences, except that breathing rate and extent was reduced.

On 15th September Peter Baker and I took Comet 671 on a flight all over the country making Battle of Britain fly-pasts. This was a pleasant diversion.

I was determined to check out the triplicated FCS as far as I could take it. Each system could be closed down independantly and the hydraulics came from several engine driven pumps.

I closed down engines until there was only one pump powering the FCS and then closed down 2 of the FCSs. 671 hardly noticed its predicament until I threw in large control inputs at which stage jack stalling became apparent. The single FCS quickly reverted to some normalcy with controls static. A lot of one armed paper hanging managed to get everything going again.

We finished our 100 hours of flight testing and report writing about mid October 1956 when 671 probably went back to Hatfield for a spell.

Milt

Nice story

Only nit-pick is that the take off accidents you mentioned were due to it being possible to STALL the wing with the main wheels on the ground - OK I know that would increase the drag - the droop LE was to INCREASE the AoA needed to stall to greater than you could reach with the wheels on the ground.

JF

She is looking very sorry for herself at the moment :(

Here's a thought: we've paid BAe £3Bn odd to churn out a load of MRA4s that we've now decided we don't want. As they've yet to deliver them I assume that money is, as yet, "unspent". That being the case I suggest that the RAF now request that BAe to take said monies and spend a fraction of it on using their Nimrod workforce to get Saggy all neat and tidy again.

Thread re-opened for further interest.

Ay thank you...

Last weekend I bumped into a retired AQM who has strong views about the preservation of 'Saggy' . She's not on the internet so I'm asking questions on her behalf.

Do anyone have an update?

My overall memory of THAT machine was Sqn Cdrs ordering people to 'volunteer' to clean it up when it was stuck there in the first place.

Perhaps it could be joined by a C130K, a Harrier, a Nimrod and a VC10 . . .

Once Lyneham closes it may !! be earmarked for storage at a top secret Shropshire heli base until the RAFM decides where to put her. :oh::oh:

Storage at Shawbury? (In bits?) That would be a satisfactory outcome, the alternative being the scrappy.

Looking forward to anything more concrete as and when anyone's able to spill more beans.