Vickers Viscount - performance issues.
 

I've heard it said that in the old Northeast and British Airways 806 days, the Viscounts flying from Leeds Bradford to Jersey and Guernsey would often delay their departure until the early evening as the short runway at LBA plus relatively high takeoff weights precluded midday and afternoon departures during the summer. I don't imagine performance was an issue when these fine aeroplanes were on Heathrow and Ireland duties - probably fewer stuffed suitcases and not quite as many passengers. But, how did the 806s and 802s manage during similar summer weather when departing from the Channel Islands? For comparison, the Jersey runway in the 60s and 70s wasn't much longer than LBA's (a problem for the BAC 1-11 too) and Guernsey's runway was less than 5000 ft long. Were British Midland and Dan Air Viscount 810s affected too ? They did have more powerful engines.

Thankyou.

BAF purchased many if not all the BA V.806 fleet and I recall they operated out of Coventry in the heat (Well occasionally!) of high summer to JER without any issues. I Don't recall the runway length at CVT in the mid 1980s but I don't imagine it would have been much longer than LBA.

British Midland were of course operating the V.810 at the same time.

The Coventry runway was physically a little shorter than that of LBA but maybe had more useable length if there were no obstacles at either end. LBA is nearly 700 ft above sea level whereas Guernsey and Jersey are pretty much on the deck, as it were. That might have been significant; not exactly hot and high a la Nairobi but along those lines.

Long time since I flew out of LBA, but I seem to recall that there was rising ground off the end of the north westerly runway. The performance limit may have been terrain clearance rather than runway length.

I can’t supply a definitive answer but, word was (in the 60s) that Viscounts were weight restricted on “hot” summer days on take off from Guernsey. This may also have been true for Jersey also; although probably less so due to the extra 400 ft of runway & lesser obstacles.

Thankyou all. The climb out off RW32 at LBA does have The Chevin in its path but there is no such obstacle off RW14 (or 15 as it used to be). RW15 could be made available for departures for performance reasons, even with a tailwind. But if the aircraft was still too heavy, then...buggered!

Sort of relevant. In the F-27 days, using the -100 series, there was an engine-out escape manoeuvre off 33. Hang a left, between the cemetery and the tarn, thereby avoiding the Chevin. I don't think it applied to the -200 series, but it's a long time ago.
(AirUK F-27, based LBA '80-'88)

​​​​​​​Same for the 737-200

I guess there are, or were, those occasions where you would just have to wait for the air to cool or a stiff headwind to spring up. Or wait a lot longer for a runway extension!

Mooncrest : You keep taking me back to flying the NE Viscounts outa LBA in 1972-4 !

I don't recall any performance issues'

Only issues were that Skippers tended to hog the pole. The 5=sector day, LBA-LHR-LBA in the morning followed by afternoon LBA-GCI-JER-LBA was greeted with hope as, surely, one might get offered one leg out of five- ?

Luvley sunny day, no wind, cavok everywhere and I was rostered with the CP and, of course, a full blown TRE/IRE. Off we went to LHR and I thought, at the start of each sector, this one is surely mine (?). Nah. Not a sniff. rotters.

As a result, in my P1 days to follow, I ensured "leg for leg" and on a three leg day, P2 would get two. One leg-? Didn't even flip a coing; P2 got it.

Formative days.

Gordomac, I knew you would have something to contribute. Did you ever ask the captain if you could take a turn at actually flying the aeroplane or was that not the done thing for a newbie ?

I once had a conversation with an ex BEA Argosy and Merchantmen caption who told tales of flying the -100 series Argosies which didn't go too well, especially if leaving Turin, they had to circle while climbing before crossing the Alps, then the more powerful -222 version arrived which was a big improvement. Until BEA decided the Viscounts had a greater need for the more powerful engines so they did a swop and the Argosies went back to struggling again. Might have been just a pub story though.

Slightly off topic (quite a lot actually!) talking about a climbing turn before setting course I can remember Icelandair and Loftleidir DC-6Bs out of Glasgow often doing a climbing orbit to the south before heading North towards the Ben Lomond area.

Surely the Channel islamds were by virtue of theri location not as hot as inland lcations like Cov and LBA even if they are in the North (if youare from the Channel islands Cov is in the North) . Islands are usually windy most of time (except when they were foggy which i think was more of a problem with Ops into the Channel Islands.(judging from my fathers muterings about the places (BEA/BA Maintrol).

Re the Argosy's out of Turin how common were these circling departues back in the day? I flew Beijing to CDG on an ancienne AF 747-100 in the mid 1990s and that had to do an enormous circle returning back over the departure runway at several thousand feet to get over the mountains north of Beijing . Announced to the passengers by droll AF captain as nothing to be alarmed about but we need to be able to climb over ze wall . A memorable flight for that reason and because for business reasons I got to fly First as I had to be back in Uk next day and that was the only way. AF had caviar with ultra chilled proper vodka as a very generous 'amuse bouche' .

I saw many years of Viscount operations at LBA but have no recollection of problems caused by high temperatures.......high cross winds a different matter! The majority of high temperatures, caused by high pressure, would usually lead to light winds and therefore the use of 15 for departures

I must confess I'm repeating hearsay in this thread. I don't actually remember the Northeast and BA Viscounts flying from LBA to the Channel Islands - for me, the Dan Air HS748s were the machines on this run which I guess was after BA bailed out. But any excuse to talk about Viscounts!

That's spot on , I also remember sitting in my P4 classroom in Paisley and seeing the BM Argonauts circle the west end of the town until they had the height to head south !

Saw this just a few years ago. The Swiss preserved DC3 took off from Cannes airport, over us on the beach (sound of the R-1830s woke me up from my slumber, much to the amusement of Mrs WHBM :) ), southbound over the Med heading for Algeria, but was back high overhead on a reciprocal heading 15 minutes later having got the altitude to clear the coastal mountains on its way back to Switzerland.

Early 2000's same thing in a 146. Cannot remember what series it was, but it took a while before we were flying back to Gatwick, rather than in climbing turns.

Other way round. They took the 520 series Darts from the Viscount 806s for the Argosys

Mooncrest.
The 1971 Northeast summer timetable shows many Viscount 806x flights to the Channel Islands departing on various days between 11:45 and 14:25

Mooncrest; Good grief, "Ask for a leg ?" ! I was glad enough to be RHS and paid as FO whereas the Hamsters going to BEA would never get near the RHS as P2 for a long time. Gosh, I called everyone Sir.

And TRN. Fbbo. My rosters were full of the usual but up came a one=off TRN. I thought it might be Edinburgh Turnhouse and had to look it up. Told girlfriend of the time that I would be late home as I was now a long-haul pilot flying international routes.

Did the circling out of TRN to get height before tackling the alps. No, didn't get either leg. Captain Terry F must have felt guilty as hell because. thereafter he gave me leg for leg whenever we met up.

Gordo, I hope cockpit relations have changed for the better now. I took a jumpseat ride on a 757 a few years back and the FO flew both legs. I don't know if that was his choice or if the skipper just couldn't be arsed!

Flew the 813,814 and 836 out of LBA for a few happy years and agree with a previous post. Never any performance issues. The only time I needed to give it some thought was on a 3 eng ferry to EMA. Second the comment about the wind and also remember that annoyingly low cloud base lifting over the threshold that allowed a good view of the runway during a missed approach!

The Viscount 800 was sold to Continental Airlines in the USA, in the days when they had a substantial local service network astride the Denver-Dallas alignment, which included some points at 5,000 feet elevation. South African Airways and the Central African/Air Zimbabwe operation regularly ran through lesser points at this sort of altitude as well, at summer temperatures rarely attained in the UK. Didn't hear of any issues.

IIRC the Viscount 800s had the RR Dart 515 and the 810s had the RR Dart 525. More power with Water Meth on the 525s.
I remember going out of Sana'a in Yemen in a SOAF Viscount that required 3 orbits to gain enough height to go north over the mountains, and the airport is over 7000ft up.

The 810 - 836, 839 etc. Viscounts flown by British Midland, Dan Air, Air Bridge, Alidair and anyone else shouldn't have experienced performance problems from LBA, JER, GCI or anywhere else. Their engines were more powerful than those of the 802 and 806 fitted to the legacy British Airways aeroplanes.

Didn't they use the cross runway that went over Yeadon?

I never saw a Viscount use R28, but certainly the smaller Dart twins - 748, F27 etc used R28 for landing in strong westerlies.

The British Midland Viscounts certainly used RW28 for takeoff and landing in strong westerly winds. I don't remember British Airways or their predecessors doing so. Prior to 1965, when RW15/33 was commissioned, there was no choice!

I recall landing R28 on a BMA Viscount flying in from LHR one morning. Would have been very early 80’s. Was noticeable by being different scenery below me on the approach.

Wow - a Viscount departure off R28 (~1000m) must have been something to behold !
Can't imagine the residents on the Harrogate Road being that thrilled though ! :rolleyes::eek:

As DH106 says, the F-27 used it regularly. Of course, only when the wind was a strong westerly. Just a "little" turbulent. It was also used by the 146 at times. Them was the days.

Nope, never looked at R28 but, hey, we in our 806X's were big, heavy, pretty, four-engined bombers ! Watched the fire service zapping along 28 on regular practice drills though.

Oh and Mooncrest, since you comment on the handling bit; a Jordie Capt came down from NCL for a five leg day and at the start of Leg 1-LHR, he said, ;" Oh, which way would you like to fly it?". Dumbfounded, startled and not prepared he saved me from an answer and continued-" actually, you do ALL the flying today....I enjoy a good laugh......."! Beastly.

Should have flown him to Newcastle and dumped him there, Gordomac.

Anyone who wanted the thrill of a Viscount taking off just a few feet overhead need only to have been in a Fire tender on RW15 on a foggy Saturday morning in November 1978😉.

802 G-AOJE wasn't it? :)
I understand the captain's subsequent verbal exchange with ATC wasn't exactly to full & proper RT standards :}

When BMI started a London City to Leeds run some years ago, with a leased ATR42, I was one of its (few) passengers until it was quite quickly given up as a bad job. And it was indeed once landed on 27 at Leeds, I think on a stormy day.

Surprised about the 146. Though I likewise once got one on a departure off the old northern short runway at Dublin (26 ?), which came as a surprise as I'd never seen any airliner go off it before, let alone a jet. Although when I looked it up, it turned out it was actually longer TORA than London City at the time, which we were heading for !

Dublin 29 I think. We landed on it in an Electra early one morning.

Nearly. G-AOJF. There is an AAIB report out there which makes alarming reading. As we were also talking about Jersey, another of our airports prone to fog/low cloud/sea fret (delete as appropriate), it's a wonder there haven't been more incidents like this. We need the sun to come out and get rid of the fog to gin-clear skies and raise the temperature to the point where takeoff isn't permitted or possible, whichever it is!

The fun bit about JEY was that the fog would sometimes be moving sideways at 20kt +