Vanguard
 

Happen to have a great video on the final years of both the Viscount (ParcelForce) and the Vanguard. I wish I was from a slightly earlier time (!) the turbine I fly now is hardly the same thing..... one thing I have noticed in trying to find stuff on the Vanguard is how little there seems to be. I guess it was only in service a relatively short time with few airframes. Anyone here have any stories they might be able to tell about flying those wonderful birds?

I seem to notice that there are hardly any (if any at all) photos of the Vanguard passenger interior. Anybody have some pics they'd like to share or some links to find any?

Guardsvan in BEA
 

You may want to try British Airways Museum Collection No interiors, but if you send them a wizzer they may point you in the right direction:ok:

My pals among the BEA General Apprentices in the late 1960s had a song about a 'dirty old Vanguard'. Anybody remember it?

Vanguard memories
 

I can remember flying on a Vanguard a few times in the late 60s.

Pa worked for BEA and was elligible for cheap flights, so on two occasions we headed off to Malta for the Summer hols. This was 1967 and 1968, so just before the massive increase in 'bucket-n-spade' flights to the Costas.

In those days BEA had 4 flights a day to Malta, all operated non-stop by Vanguards. We were on the night flight, leaving Heathrow at about midnight, for a 4-hour flight to the Med on a Vanguard.

I remember that we travelled as a family, so we were allocated seats together ... and it was a block of seats around a table ... three seats facing forward, and three seats facing backwards. I've never seen such a seat arrangement on another aircraft (but I never flew in Viscounts, did they have them like this?).

Some memories from the flights ...

looking out of the window at the red wings.
my brother looking green and unwell throughout the flight ... as soon as the food tray was placed in front of him he immediately threw-up all over it!
the Pilot announcing over the PA as we flew past Mont Blanc, visible in the moonlight below us.
stepping out of the aircraft at 4am in Malta and feeling liked I'd been smacked in the face by a steaming towel.

The return flight was also at night. But the refuellers in Malta were on strike, so after dis-embarking the inbound passengers the aircraft flew off to Tripole for refuel, then back to Malta to pick-up passengers, then back to London. I was scared because I thought we wouldn't have enough fuel!

There's one at Brooklands

My first airline flight as a boy on a school exchange was BEA London to Paris by Comet, returning by Vanguard. Must have been early-mid 60s.

Nice a/c to fly in - loved those big windows.

The Vanguard was a surprisingly noisy aircraft in the cruise. On London to Scotland they were audible overhead the Midlands cruising along at about 20,000 feet.

It was an aircraft that was immediately outclassed. BEA using them to the Continent were swept aside by all the European carriers who introduced Caravelles at the same time. In the end they had to use them just on domestics, or colonial routes like Gibraltar or Malta where there was no competition. Air Canada meanwhile were only able to run them on because they had a regulated monopoly on most of their routes.

The Tyne engine didn't have much commercial sccess compared to the Dart on the Viscount, and must have been difficult to maintain downroute.

However you can't really blame Vickers and the Government too much for not forecasting the arrival of short-haul jets, Lockheed ran into the same issue with the Electra.

Vanguard interior
 

PropSyncOff said;-
I seem to notice that there are hardly any (if any at all) photos of the Vanguard passenger interior. Anybody have some pics they'd like to share or some links to find any?

We have a couple which we will be putting up on G-APEP at Brooklands soon & when we next update our web site www.vickersvanguardmerchantman.com I will put them on there.

merlinxx was quite correct that the B.A. museum has got some pictures, these are the one`s that we have got.

tristar500

I remember flying with BEA to Dublin as a child in several of their Vanguards, again at night and seemingly always getting caught in a lot of turbulence over the Irish Sea, it seemed to go on forever...Were they unable to climb above the weather, limited by the powerplants ? I seem to recall flying in a Merepati Nusarantha (sp ?) Vanguard in the 70's from Heathrow. Am I hallucinating ?

As an aside is that a Vanguard to be heard in the background of the Beatle's song "Back in the USSR" ? I always held it to be such, but then again maybe it was a Viscount :8


Regards


SHJ

Also known to ATC as the Guard's Van.. Have a few grey hairs left from those days as they were verrrryyy slow to roll.

I flew to Malta in 1967 in a Vanguard and spent a while up-front. The flight deck was approximately the size of a football pitch with visibility to match.

Unfortunately I never got to fly in a Vanguard (flew in several Viscounts though) but I have memories of watching them from the observation deck on top of the Queen's Building at LHR in the 1960's. In those days, before nose-in parking, the BEA Vanguard fleet would be coming and going all day, mostly on UK domestics and certain other short European routes such as Amsterdam and Paris, until these routes went over to Trident operation. In fact the reverberating noise of the RR Tynes was a virtual constant background racket at LHR in the period 1961 to 1967.

I always much preferred the Lockheed Electra. Better-looking and wonderful engine music from those Allisons. Quieter on climb and in the cruise as well.

Merpati Vanguard
 

You probably weren't hallucinating, I seem to recall that BEA sold at least one to MNA, and that it spent a few days parked at Birmingham (why I can't recall) with it's UK registration and in full Merpati scheme. I can't confirm exactly when, but around 1970 I would think.

Another poster will probably be able to confirm which airframe, and whether it actually flew for BEA in MNA colours.

First commercial flight in a Vanguard (VC9) GAPEB from Manchester to Heathrow Lstg5 student standby return !!! Flew back on one of the new BAC-111s - GAVMJ if I am not mistaken . 1969 or so . Those were the days. Why is aviation and flying so complicated and off-putting nowadays? Even I take the ferry from Europe to The Island instead of flying now ... sad. Vanguards ... marvellous beasts and the noise of those Tynes ... heavy metal.

Was it the engines or the props that we so noisy on the Vanguard ? The engines are twice the power of the Darts on the Viscount, the props had much more power to handle.

Well, BEA Vanguards never served Moscow, although a Merchantman freigher converion made it later when Chi-Chi the London Zoo panda was taken to the USSR for a naughty weekend with An-An, the Moscow zoo panda :) . Moscow was Comets from its inception until the time of the song. A real geek at the studios would have got a recording of an Ilyushin 18.

Well if the many aviation howlers that have been perpetrated on the film goers of the world by sloppy directors is anything to go by, then it would've been anything but :)

YouTube - The Beatles - Back In The USSR

Any takers for the crown of audio aviatory champion 2009 ? :8


Regards


SHJ

Merpati Vanguard
 

In 1972 I took G-APEF repainted as PK-MVJ as the first BEA Vanguard to Jakarta for Merpati.
In the end they had 4 ex BEA and 4 ex Air Canada
My ferry flight lasted 7days with and extra 3weeks Route Training.
Quite a trip.

<<In those days, before nose-in parking, the BEA Vanguard fleet would be coming and going all day,>>

And most of the night too.. They didn't have curfews in those days.

One of the old hands at Air Bridge Carriers told me that the floor support structure was lowered by a couple of inches when Vanguards were converted to Merchantmen. Anyone know the full story?

Heathrow Director:

Yes, unlike today's schedules of multiple daily departures at more or less regular intervals, in the 1960's, many routes ex-LHR (or LAP in those days) to continental European destinations would have one or two daytime departures and a night flight departing at some unearthly hour such as 2300, midnight, or even 0100 or 0200! I guess the night flights were scheduled to tap into the "low-fare market" of the day by offering special night tourist prices.

Living close to the BPK VOR in those days,we would get the domestic BEA Vanguards noisily climbing away from 10L or 10R departures, sometimes 3 or 4 in quick succession, and KLM Electras departing on 28L or 28R departures. Best sound of all were probably made by the various Eastern European IL-18's. Most exotic was an Areoflot TU-114 climbing away at very low altitude off 28L or 28R, must have been around 1965. A very rare bird.

Back in the USSR, sounds like a Viscount to me.

Nick.

BEA used Vanguards for freight work during the 70s so they flew just about all night long.

I was there for the first TU-114 flight on 8 Feb 1963... amazing aeroplane.

Ahhhhh.....Vanguards
 

And |I thought I was the only one who loved Vanguards. Greetings to fellow devotees.

Early memories...Renfrew/Heathrow/Palma in the early sixties. All night flights...sometimes with an IB Metropolitan for the return trip. No wonder I became a plane enthusiast.

Then hearing the last EDI/LHR of the day flying over my school. It took my imagination flying with it.

Later - the ill-fated G-APEC to LHR followed by the equally ill-fated G-ARPI to Brussels. Return by Sabena 727-100 OO-TSB and Comet G-APMG.

Later still - G-APEC again to Salzburg. Return in one of those fabulous "table" seats to admire Tynes at full chat against a backdrop of snowy Alps. It doesn't get much better.

And finally...a frosty, moonlit night in Kensington and the sight of an Elan Merchantmen turning finals. Not a bad farewell.

So please, Vanguard geeks, post your pics and memories. Your fellow Vanguardistas are out here!

Oh, and with respects to Electra buffs, NOTHING about the L-188 eclipses the aristocratic nose, clean-cut tail and exquisite sound of the 951 and 953.

Goofer

Friday night treat ! All from Colin Louries collection. All at Turnhouse 60's.
Tissues at the ready :)

Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...wsome/van1.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...wsome/van2.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...wsome/van4.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...wsome/van3.jpg

Here are the BEA Vanguard flights from Heathrow on a Friday in Summer 1962. Minimum of 13 aircraft required.

0010 BE 028 Barcelona
0215 BE 128 Milan
0600 BE 5006 Glasgow
0620 BE 6008 Belfast
0730 BE 4008 Manchester
0755 BE 6014 Belfast
0800 BE 336 Paris LBG
0810 BE 5366 Edinburgh
0820 BE 5014 Glasgow
0930 BE 4018 Manchester
0945 BE 865 Dublin
1000 BE 340 Paris LBG
1010 BE 5022 Glasgow
1200 BE 344 Paris LBG
1210 BE 5380 Edinburgh
1220 BE 6032 Belfast
1220 BE 196 Naples-Malta
1250 BE 4030 Manchester
1325 BE 062 Gibraltar
1330 BE 5036 Glasgow
1400 BE 348 Paris LBG
1450 BE 867 Dublin
1535 BE 4044 Manchester
1550 BE 6040 Belfast
1600 BE 354 Paris LBG
1700 BE 5050 Glasgow
1720 BE 6052 Belfast
1800 BE 356 Paris LBG
1820 BE 5404 Edinburgh
1840 BE 4052 Manchester
1920 BE 6060 Belfast
2000 BE 5062 Glasgow
2000 BE 360 Paris LBG
2010 BE 5410 Edinburgh
2050 BE 5058 Glasgow
2200 BE 364 Paris LBG
2300 BE 010 Palma
2330 BE 6072 Belfast
2340 BE 5076 Glasgow
2350 BE 5428 Edinburgh

How could anyone other than its mother call that aircraft beautiful?

What's the story of the livery in the third photo - the small BEA square? And interesting to see the BA-painted rudder on the French one.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...a/vanguard.jpg

That`s the one at Brooklands....not my best effort.

I fondly remember them as a kid of 13 in Liverpool with my VHF skymaster airband having heard the likes of bee-line echo golf Lichfield 20 level 180 Wallasey 40, and knowing I only have 10 mins to wait to hear the fabulous noise of those RR Tynes from so far humming away as it makes it merry way up red 3 to Belfast,

It was a lovely heavy sound.

Nick.

In the '70s and '80s, I lived close to Castle Don., and these aeroplanes were a familiar sound, night and day. I seem to recall that in later years, there was a an early turn off the 09 centreline given specifically to this type on departure due to complaints from Kegworth residents.

One rumbled up the airway around midnight-ish, highly distinctive, and I'm guessing it was something out of Luton for Scotland.

I had a couple of pre-uni. summer jobs at EMA, and the ground runs on the compass base at full power were impressive, and seemed to last for hours.

My last encounter with one was when camping south west of Coventry, and one coming directly over the site on a two mile final on a still night. Goosebumps.

Utterly British, sadly missed.

Keith,

That's a very evocative shot of G-APEE, which crashed at Heathrow on 27 Oct 65 on a flight from Edinburgh: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19651027-0〈=en

Vickers built the finest flight deck in aviation history ....... then they must have gone to the pub for lunch.

Thanks, Norwich! Now if you could just add the soundtrack...and the kerosene....

The EAS aircraft is in the airline's later colours, into which a few of their Vanguards were painted. That is not a BA-coloured rudder, it is the way the EAS livery was. In fact if you compare it to the BA scheme you'll see that that it does not match.

Bit of history
 

Somewhere in my "library" I have/had a report (? by a Mr. Worcester ?), possibly for BEA or Vickers, "proving" that the new-fangled jets, such as the Caravelle, could never be profitable, specially on short routes where their higher speed, making (perhaps) more rotations per day possible, could not earn more than a slower turbo-prop. To make sure, he calculated that the turbo-prop's passenger capacity also needed to be a bit higher than that of the French product.
It all looked fine in this analysis, and BEA duly ordered the Vanguard but passengers were more impressed by flying in a jet (quieter cabin ?) and the (not much) shorter flight times, at least on British internal routes. London - Nice was another matter, of course.
Not long afterwards, BEA reckoned that those routes couldn't be economical anyway, at least south of Scotland, I think, as rail would be faster. :ugh::ugh:
As an afterthought, I always thought that the EAS "fleet", static at Perpignan, would have been ideal as a Shackleton replacement, but Coastal Command sooooo badly wanted jets like the big boys ...

I took this photo on 22/03/71 during my very first flight,which was the BE5365 being operated by G-APEA from Edinburgh to Heathrow.I loved Vanguards,especially in the BEA re-square colour scheme.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...8-2009_008.jpg

I too have fond memories of my one and only flight in a BEA Vanguard as a lad in May of 1968......G-APEO London to Amsterdam

Still have the "Flight Bulletin Form" which was passed around the cabin.
Captain Webster, First Steward Mr Lavers, Altitude 15000ft at 400 mph,
passing Clacton 20 minutes after take off, arriving AMS 50 minutes after take off.

I remember entering the aircraft and taking the first window seat on the left side of the aircraft which was an aft facing club style arrangement with a table set up between us and the second row which was forward facing.

Great view of those Tynes through those magnificent huge oval windows and it was a clear blue mid morning flight so great view of the channel and the tulip fields as we came into AMS:ok:

A few photos of the Brooklands Vanguard G-APEP

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1BXJmcdgZEw/RV...0/DSC_4205.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1BXJmcdgZEw/RV...0/DSC_4214.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BXJmcdgZEw/RV...0/DSC_4230.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_1BXJmcdgZEw/RV...0/DSC_4228.JPG

I live approx 2ml from the OLD SPEKE AIRPORT at Liverpool and even at that distance I could hear the old AIR BRIDGE CARRIERS and the BEA Vanguards/Merchantmen running their engines for T/O and just Taxying on the Airport. It was a very distinctive sound. And the Viscounts were passing over our house all the time and they had a unique sound, HAPPY DAY'S:ok::ok:.

I could hear them in Runcorn were I live now.

Nick.

One still night, I listened to one start up, taxi to the 05 end at Teesside, and make a majestically heavy and booming departure close to where I stood. And I was around four miles from the airfield. Lining up, the aircraft would have been almost five miles distant.

There was something about the frequency of the noise of those props that commanded attention.

Not a beutiful aeroplane, but a handsome one. Guardsvan, Vickers Vibrator - I don't know, never having flown on one. But legend has it they were not as smooth as the Viscounts. I saw them frequently at Manchester in the '60s.

'USSR' is deffo a 'Dart' sound, not Tyne.

Once flew (standing up behind the P2) Man to Jersey on a Viscount - take off to landing - no jump seat!). Then a week later home on an F27 (G-BMAP), on the jump seat that time. The Viscount was smooth and quiet. The F27 a noisy shed. How could an aeroplane with half the number of Darts be 4 times as noisy?

Vickers got it right with the Viscount.:ok:

I used to work with an (ex) long serving Chief Pilot of Aer Lingus, who had a few things to say about the Viscount - that it was a lousy design only kept in the air by the excellence of its engines.

His take on the One-Eleven was that it was over-engineered to the point of indestructibility ('machined out of a solid block of aluminium') and consequently a hopelessly uneconomical prospect for BAC. Can't imagine what he would have said about the 146.