Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Misc. Forums > Aviation History and Nostalgia
Reload this Page >

Operating a DC3 - Some Questions

Aviation History and Nostalgia Whether working in aviation, retired, wannabee or just plain fascinated this forum welcomes all with a love of flight.

Operating a DC3 - Some Questions

Old 2nd Mar 2003, 22:45
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bath UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Operating a DC3 - Some Questions

Hi,

I'm building a business case to offer European Tours in a DC3 as part of a Business degree course - the idea is that it'd be a sort of "Orient Express of the air". I'm trying to build the cost model for operations and choose some European airfields but have struggled to find out the following information. Any advice would be much appreciated:

Q1. How long a runway does the (typical) DC3 need? I'm assuming grass will be OK.
Q2. Any idea of the hourly running costs? I can't find any information on maintenance schedules or tasks but I need some numbers to build the financial model.
Q3. Are there any people in the UK (individuals, organisations or companies) I should be contacting to find out all this stuff?

I've spotted G-DAKK for sale for 150k (http://www.eurofly.co.uk/dakotasale/dakkprice.htm) so this is what I'm going to build my model on.

Any advice on any of the above would be much appreciated. You never know, if the business plan stacks up, I might be asking for pilots soon!
studentboy is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2003, 02:50
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

The best people to ask would be Air Atlantique/Atlantic Airlines at Coventry who operate Daks in the reconnaissance role and I think they have one configured for pax as well.

For info their phone number is 024 7676 2222.


You must also consider the costs of getting an up and running AOC, liability insurance, Eurocontrol Nav Charges etc. etc.

Sadly the number of grass runways (licenced ones anyway) are on the decline.

I'm sure you must have heard the saying if you want to make a small fortune in aviation then start with a large one!

Rgds PoC
Piece of Cake is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2003, 05:41
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you figure your direct operating costs for the DC3 (pilots,fuel,oil, maintenance, maintenance reserves) then the figure will approach $800/hr. Note, USA prices.
Note that insurance, landing fees etc have been left out of the estimate. Also does not include a hangar, which you may want....changing a cylinder in the rain ain't fun.
411A is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2003, 15:22
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I saw an Air Atlantique Dak take off from Middle Wallop at an air display about 10 years ago. It was quite a sight on that undulating ground.
chippy63 is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2003, 14:00
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If anyone is interested both Dakotas are sitting at the end of now defunct runway 35 at Lee-on-the-Solent airfield waiting for buyers!!. 150,000 and 75,000 are the asking prices now.
Census boy is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2003, 17:11
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 39N 77W
Posts: 1,630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not exactly your side of the ocean (in most cases), but I found about 560 DC-3s of various versions on the US FAA registry: http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acmain.htm

A few were said to be in places like Malta.
seacue is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2003, 11:45
  #7 (permalink)  
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Floatin' on th' Black Pig, Yarr!
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Then don't forget the interior fitout. If you are going for an "Orient Express" interior then you can look at budgeting for new seat covers and carpets. The seat covers are going to cost you 150 each due to the small quantity and the carpet will be 50 per metre for anything worth looking at.

Assume interior cleaning and catering , dry cleaning covers etc and that will add a few grand a year to your estimate as well.
maninblack is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2003, 16:46
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
But it would be less expensive and possibly attract more people (of a certain type at least) if you just painted it OD and used canvas bucket seats, the only food service collecting the "outgoing", and called it a C-47 (or R4D if you prefer).

In US last operators I saw were Provincetown Boston (out of business about 15 years ago) and Shawnee Airways in Orlando (not MCO, Herndon). There also used to be a Ford Trimotor operation from Sandusky Ohio.

Bet the insuranace, permits and associated mickey mouse will make it cost prohibative.
Iron City is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2003, 21:26
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Canada, N.S. Kingston
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cool Buffalo

Check out Buffalo Air in Yellowknife NWT, Canada. There totaly stuck in the 1940's.


cheers
johnny canuck is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2003, 23:57
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Twyford, UK
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cool

I have landed a Dak at Sand Strips marked out by tyres in the Rub al Khali with absolutely no probs at all. We had to depart DHA very very very early so as to get there and depart before the heat built up though, so as to get off the strip with a decent payload. I would ask the previous operators of G-DAKK about the cost of European Charter and Pleasure Flights. They operated it for a while, and eventually, sadly, went bust, and it slid out of Bournemouth and landed at Popham, to escape the bailiffs. Popham is not by anystretch of the imagination, Heathrow. But it is grass and friendly.
It's arrival at Popham coincided with the Annual Garden Party of the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators. Impressed the hell out of their Airships.!!
Taildragger is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2003, 13:01
  #11 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bath UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Landing Fees?

Thanks for all the above.....

Any idea what sort of landing fees I'd be looking at in Europe? We be operating as a Commercial airline and so I guess we be charged a bit more than a private plane.

We'd be a DC-3 + 18 passengers landing at the smaller airfields, I reckon they'd be looking for a fixed rate + per passenger. Should I be budgetting for a few tens of or a few hundred?

Any web sites which list fees for airfields?

Oh, and another thing.... where can I find DC-3 pilots in the UK?
studentboy is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2003, 15:12
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You know you should look at this Swiss company and possibly talk to them:

http://www.ju-air.ch/e/01ju/index.htm

They do roughly what you're proposing, but with Junkers 52s.

QDM
QDMQDMQDM is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2003, 15:59
  #13 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 59
Posts: 11,792
Received 41 Likes on 26 Posts
Think there's also a DC-3 operation in Switzerland...

For DC-3 pilots, try Air Atlantique at Coventry... also Aces High at North Weald.

This is just a theoretical exercise, right?

Friend of mine did something similar for an Airline Management course or some such a few years ago... he got a bit into it and I drafted up some colour schemes on a Jetstream 31, SD-360 and Dash 8 as he contemplated his fleet requirements, and then mocked up headed paper and a nice front cover for his submission! He settled for the Jetstream. Looked quite nice!

He recently remarked to me that, had it been for real, he'd probably have a fleet of 737s by now! That, or be part of the structure of a motorway bridge...
treadigraph is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2003, 04:55
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
DC-3 Operating costs

Studentboy,
If you check on <http://www.douglasdc3.com/dc3cost/dc3cost.htm>
I think you will find most if not all of the details you seek.
HectorusRex is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2003, 11:19
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Warks
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you really are serious, as a number of people have already mentioned contact Air Atlantique.

E-mail cstill@airatlantique .co.uk

Or phone Ceri Still 02476 882611

I am begining to doubt the validity of this enquiry as to the best of my knowlege you have not spoken to them. They have already been approached by others with this same question interested in the same airframe. Its a small market and there is not much to be gained by the clandestine approach.

Snark
Snark is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2003, 15:26
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Beyond the black stump!
Posts: 1,394
Received 9 Likes on 5 Posts
fish

ERA Aviation in Anchorage offers flightseeing trips in 2 rather beautiful DC-3's.

Check them out here.

I was involved in operating one some years ago. It was a beautiful machine (had a fortune invested in it) but was very unreliable, principally because it was seldom used and got upset after being cranked up every few months after all that idle time. Like so many good aircraft they thrive on being used all the time, and definately enjoy a good reputation for reliability.

Until a couple of years ago, Air North was regularly operating passenger service with them, until they replaced them with the traditional DC-3 replacement, HS 748's! The march of time and progress may be a little slower outside the centre's of civilisation!

If you ever get a chance to check out a DC-3 on ski's, don't miss that opportunity.

Still have to go and check them out every time I see one though. Great aircraft.
Cyclic Hotline is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2003, 03:25
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: CYZV
Age: 77
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

You might want to check out http://www.douglasdc3.com/
They have a section on operating costs that might prove useful. The sound effects as you enter the site is worth the visit.
pigboat is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2003, 18:06
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Surrey, Uk
Age: 72
Posts: 1,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hurn 1963 G-APBC




CP & BOAC. Is this Ok ??

Mr G.
Mr_Grubby is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2003, 15:18
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: CYZV
Age: 77
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
http://www.douglasdc3.com/float.html
pigboat is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.