Ahhhh Austerrrrrrrrrr (Merged)
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LowNslow
How much
for a minor rebuild. That can't be right, can it ?
In the pfa mag last month there was a zero timed major for £ 7.5 K. When looking for Auster parts on the web, I came across a minor with 500 hours for £ 3.5K, allthough it was in Oz.
I know everyone seems to think these Wam diesels are the bees knees at the moment, but they are still not in produciton are they ? . Also from a safety point of view, yes no highly flammable petrol or mags to worry about. But diesels must have a much cleaner source of fuel. Only the slightest sediment from an old tank is enough to block the filter or injectors.
As for number of Autocrats. I think the modified one (G-AGVG) is flying with a 0360 and was modified like a model U (workmaster) by Ron Neal at Leicester.
I though the model N was a stock Autocrat retrofitted with a Major and the larger fin / rudder. Wasn't the S modle the arctic expedition pair with floats ect. (one is with the Raf museam).
Anyway. The final decision with AP will come down to weight and balance against the cost of both options. In its direct drive mode it was found to be very nose heavy and underpowered. It was also fitted with a shortened ground adjustable prop due to the lower thrust line, which didn't help.
How much
for a minor rebuild. That can't be right, can it ?In the pfa mag last month there was a zero timed major for £ 7.5 K. When looking for Auster parts on the web, I came across a minor with 500 hours for £ 3.5K, allthough it was in Oz.
I know everyone seems to think these Wam diesels are the bees knees at the moment, but they are still not in produciton are they ? . Also from a safety point of view, yes no highly flammable petrol or mags to worry about. But diesels must have a much cleaner source of fuel. Only the slightest sediment from an old tank is enough to block the filter or injectors.
As for number of Autocrats. I think the modified one (G-AGVG) is flying with a 0360 and was modified like a model U (workmaster) by Ron Neal at Leicester.
I though the model N was a stock Autocrat retrofitted with a Major and the larger fin / rudder. Wasn't the S modle the arctic expedition pair with floats ect. (one is with the Raf museam).
Anyway. The final decision with AP will come down to weight and balance against the cost of both options. In its direct drive mode it was found to be very nose heavy and underpowered. It was also fitted with a shortened ground adjustable prop due to the lower thrust line, which didn't help.
Thread Starter
Oscar Deuce what's a "minor" rebuild 
The price I quoted was for a zero timed, all mods incorporated rebuild. The major problem with the Cirrus is getting the bits. The person who quoted me the price has already spent the time and money sourcing all the parts from around the world and has them in his workshop. Don't forget, the Cirrus was produced in far lower quantities than the Gipsy. Regarding the 500 hr Cirrus, don't forget the Cirrus TBO is 800, yes just 800 hours. They can be run "on condition" if the aircraft is on a Private C of A which is a bonus.
As an aside, if you pay less than £10k for a zero timed engine it is probably an engine rebuilt within manufacturer's tolerances "at the time of rebuild". This will not necessarily run to another TBO. Eg the crankshaft could be at the lower end of the tolerances and you take the chance of it doing another 2,000 hours (Lyc or Conti) without needing another regrind. If it does need to have the main bearings replaced and the crank journals need a regrind it can't take another regrind so you have to stump up £2k for a new crank...... When people say that an engine is zero timed be damn sure exactly who did it and to what specs. Been there, done that. Ouch
OK back on track. As you say, the WAM120 is not yet in service but I think that diesels (as much as I hate them in road vehicles) are the future for GA. As they would probably run on Avtur rather than diesel, contaminants shouldn't be too much of a problem. A decent filtration system should allow use of road diesel if that is the fuel of choice (better lubricity for a start, car diesels won't run very long on Avtur as it has poor lubricating properties for things like the fuel pump).
Doesn't sound like the Rover V8 is entirely satisfactory then.....How about asking the PFA about suitable belt drive reduction systems which would raise the prop centreline to where it should be and allow the engine to rev into it's more efficient (read more powerful) rev band. Belts are MUCH easier than designing or adapting a gearbox with all the associated harmonic vibrations etc etc. Regarding the nose heaviness, is the battery in the tail? It's amazing how a 15' lever arm and a 10lb weight can make the nose lighter
The price I quoted was for a zero timed, all mods incorporated rebuild. The major problem with the Cirrus is getting the bits. The person who quoted me the price has already spent the time and money sourcing all the parts from around the world and has them in his workshop. Don't forget, the Cirrus was produced in far lower quantities than the Gipsy. Regarding the 500 hr Cirrus, don't forget the Cirrus TBO is 800, yes just 800 hours. They can be run "on condition" if the aircraft is on a Private C of A which is a bonus.As an aside, if you pay less than £10k for a zero timed engine it is probably an engine rebuilt within manufacturer's tolerances "at the time of rebuild". This will not necessarily run to another TBO. Eg the crankshaft could be at the lower end of the tolerances and you take the chance of it doing another 2,000 hours (Lyc or Conti) without needing another regrind. If it does need to have the main bearings replaced and the crank journals need a regrind it can't take another regrind so you have to stump up £2k for a new crank...... When people say that an engine is zero timed be damn sure exactly who did it and to what specs. Been there, done that. Ouch
OK back on track. As you say, the WAM120 is not yet in service but I think that diesels (as much as I hate them in road vehicles) are the future for GA. As they would probably run on Avtur rather than diesel, contaminants shouldn't be too much of a problem. A decent filtration system should allow use of road diesel if that is the fuel of choice (better lubricity for a start, car diesels won't run very long on Avtur as it has poor lubricating properties for things like the fuel pump).
Doesn't sound like the Rover V8 is entirely satisfactory then.....How about asking the PFA about suitable belt drive reduction systems which would raise the prop centreline to where it should be and allow the engine to rev into it's more efficient (read more powerful) rev band. Belts are MUCH easier than designing or adapting a gearbox with all the associated harmonic vibrations etc etc. Regarding the nose heaviness, is the battery in the tail? It's amazing how a 15' lever arm and a 10lb weight can make the nose lighter
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LowNSlow. Looks like it just me and you on here.
Anyway. The model S was infact only a protoype AOP after the 6. It was fitted with a 145 Blackburn motor (later used in the 9) but was not taken up by the army.
800 hour tbo on a minor you say. I never knew that. Thats make that 10-15K rebuild look even worse.
I really hope these jetA1 units prove to be reliable and economical. With rising insurance etc. Money needs to be saved somewhere.
As for AP and the Rover unit. A belt reduction gear is the option I am looking at, which would raise the thrust line back up to a minor level. But the key issue at the moment is weight. With the Rover engine, belt drive and accessories I am looking at a weight of 390 lbs. With a Lycoming 0360, again with accessories it is more like 290 lbs. (both with lightweight starter, both less prop and cowlings). The battery is currently where the rear bench was, but even here it has trouble cranking the engine that fast.
I have spoken to the Pfa about this. Who are happy for me to uprgade most things on her within their remit and with cause. But think the Rover unit will be a painful learning experience and detract from the enjoyment of rebuilding and flying this lovely little taildrager. In fact everyone I speak to has said put in a Lycoming.
We shall see. I must remember the aim was to buy something that would be enjoyable to build / rebuild and would provide fun, frugal (ish) farm strip flying (married into a farming family).
Anyway. The model S was infact only a protoype AOP after the 6. It was fitted with a 145 Blackburn motor (later used in the 9) but was not taken up by the army.
800 hour tbo on a minor you say. I never knew that. Thats make that 10-15K rebuild look even worse.
I really hope these jetA1 units prove to be reliable and economical. With rising insurance etc. Money needs to be saved somewhere.
As for AP and the Rover unit. A belt reduction gear is the option I am looking at, which would raise the thrust line back up to a minor level. But the key issue at the moment is weight. With the Rover engine, belt drive and accessories I am looking at a weight of 390 lbs. With a Lycoming 0360, again with accessories it is more like 290 lbs. (both with lightweight starter, both less prop and cowlings). The battery is currently where the rear bench was, but even here it has trouble cranking the engine that fast.
I have spoken to the Pfa about this. Who are happy for me to uprgade most things on her within their remit and with cause. But think the Rover unit will be a painful learning experience and detract from the enjoyment of rebuilding and flying this lovely little taildrager. In fact everyone I speak to has said put in a Lycoming.
We shall see. I must remember the aim was to buy something that would be enjoyable to build / rebuild and would provide fun, frugal (ish) farm strip flying (married into a farming family).
Thread Starter
Oscar Deuce as you say, it looks like just thee and me here!
I didn't realise that the Rover was that heavy. I do remember that my last one was hard to lug around the garage. I suppose as aero engines generally have far fewer components (less to go wrong) than their ground bound counterparts logically they must be lighter.
Where is the radiator currently mounted? Would there be any advantage in having a belly mounted scoop under the cockpit for example to ease the nose heaviness? Regarding the lack of oomph to the starter, maybe your power cables aren't all they should be. There are a considerable number of PFA types with the battery remotely mounted.
Has the aircraft been changed in any way aft of the firewall? Don't forget that if you fit an O-360 you'll need at least a belly tank (rarer than hen's teeth) or wing tanks (easiest way is to buy a pair of wings with them in!) or you won't be flying very far
This is why a lot of people go for the O-320 instead. It's also cheaper and easier to find 2nd hand as there were considerably more of them made I think. There's a group up in Spanhoe who have a time expired but apparently running sweetly O-320 in their Auster. They are upgrading to an O-360 as they have a belly tank fitted. I'll pm you with a contact number for the chap who owns the airfield and knows the bods involved. I think they were asking around £3k for it. I don't know if they are prepared to sell the mountings, cowlings etc. I would doubt it as they will probably fir the O-360 but I may be way off the mark here.
PS Regarding the belly tank, they are generally a good thing to have anyway. Would you be interested in trying to get a batch made? I'm sure thay would be snapped up instantly as every time I see one advertised in PF or the Auster mag I phone up only to find they've gone. All the pipes and fittings are still available from Ron Neal in Leicester, well they were last year anyway
I didn't realise that the Rover was that heavy. I do remember that my last one was hard to lug around the garage. I suppose as aero engines generally have far fewer components (less to go wrong) than their ground bound counterparts logically they must be lighter.
Where is the radiator currently mounted? Would there be any advantage in having a belly mounted scoop under the cockpit for example to ease the nose heaviness? Regarding the lack of oomph to the starter, maybe your power cables aren't all they should be. There are a considerable number of PFA types with the battery remotely mounted.
Has the aircraft been changed in any way aft of the firewall? Don't forget that if you fit an O-360 you'll need at least a belly tank (rarer than hen's teeth) or wing tanks (easiest way is to buy a pair of wings with them in!) or you won't be flying very far
This is why a lot of people go for the O-320 instead. It's also cheaper and easier to find 2nd hand as there were considerably more of them made I think. There's a group up in Spanhoe who have a time expired but apparently running sweetly O-320 in their Auster. They are upgrading to an O-360 as they have a belly tank fitted. I'll pm you with a contact number for the chap who owns the airfield and knows the bods involved. I think they were asking around £3k for it. I don't know if they are prepared to sell the mountings, cowlings etc. I would doubt it as they will probably fir the O-360 but I may be way off the mark here.
PS Regarding the belly tank, they are generally a good thing to have anyway. Would you be interested in trying to get a batch made? I'm sure thay would be snapped up instantly as every time I see one advertised in PF or the Auster mag I phone up only to find they've gone. All the pipes and fittings are still available from Ron Neal in Leicester, well they were last year anyway
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LowNSlow
The rad is currently mounted infront of underside rear firewall. Others who have used this engine state side have found cooling just as good and drag less with twin cores mounted in the front cowling. Perhaps it is the cables that are weak. We took a recent battery out of a tractor to run the engine before we remove it. But it still didn't turn as fast as should be. Anyway the carb (marvel aircraft type) seems blocked. As the fuel wasn't getting into the cyliners, just dripping out air intake.
Except the lack of rear bench. She's a stock autocrat rear of the firewall. So yes only a firewall tank (10.5 gallons ?). Whatever I put in I would want additonal fuel capacity. Wings tanks sound the best option (larger capacity and guages). But finding wings with them in could be difficult and fitting them could be £££. But as you say, belly tanks are thin on the ground. As for the wings, I've been told that the split flaps are the better option (ie wings I have). But then someone else was on about the shorter Alpine wings for speed.
Anyway. I have heard about the 0320 for sale at Spanhoe (£3.5K). But no mention of hours TT and thats a top end figure for a run out engine in my mind (looking back over old copies of Pf). Decisions decisions ????
Will have to think on the belly tank. Any idea about £££. So you are a club member (only just joined). I have been phoning the guy who has the largest private ad in the back of the last issue (TIME Magazine !) But can't get any answer. Do you know him ? Is the number correct. He seems to have most things I'm looking for.
The rad is currently mounted infront of underside rear firewall. Others who have used this engine state side have found cooling just as good and drag less with twin cores mounted in the front cowling. Perhaps it is the cables that are weak. We took a recent battery out of a tractor to run the engine before we remove it. But it still didn't turn as fast as should be. Anyway the carb (marvel aircraft type) seems blocked. As the fuel wasn't getting into the cyliners, just dripping out air intake.
Except the lack of rear bench. She's a stock autocrat rear of the firewall. So yes only a firewall tank (10.5 gallons ?). Whatever I put in I would want additonal fuel capacity. Wings tanks sound the best option (larger capacity and guages). But finding wings with them in could be difficult and fitting them could be £££. But as you say, belly tanks are thin on the ground. As for the wings, I've been told that the split flaps are the better option (ie wings I have). But then someone else was on about the shorter Alpine wings for speed.
Anyway. I have heard about the 0320 for sale at Spanhoe (£3.5K). But no mention of hours TT and thats a top end figure for a run out engine in my mind (looking back over old copies of Pf). Decisions decisions ????
Will have to think on the belly tank. Any idea about £££. So you are a club member (only just joined). I have been phoning the guy who has the largest private ad in the back of the last issue (TIME Magazine !) But can't get any answer. Do you know him ? Is the number correct. He seems to have most things I'm looking for.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Hey chaps, "Us Listeners" are still here and enjoying the discussion - keep it (well, them, actually, Austers) up!
Thread Starter
Oscar, the standard tank is 15 gallons, Imperial of course. Aiglet wings are 2' each shorter bringing your wingspan down to 32' with the added bonus of wing tanks. Unfortunately they also give you a longer (but only a little bit) take off run.
£3.5k is a bit more than the value of the core engine (usually around £3k) but if it has good compressions and no shiny bits in the oil filter it could be a goody. As a sales point, pitch up with a new oil filter and remove the old one, cut it open (not with a saw) and inspect it yourself for shiny bits If the crank is good then you can (under the PFA) make it an engine to last your lifetime for £5k or so.
Cheers treadigraph, nice to know there is somebody else out there
£3.5k is a bit more than the value of the core engine (usually around £3k) but if it has good compressions and no shiny bits in the oil filter it could be a goody. As a sales point, pitch up with a new oil filter and remove the old one, cut it open (not with a saw) and inspect it yourself for shiny bits
If the crank is good then you can (under the PFA) make it an engine to last your lifetime for £5k or so. Cheers treadigraph, nice to know there is somebody else out there
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LowNSlow & Oscar Duece
I too am enjoying your posts.
I made my contribution on page 2 on Jan. 22nd.
What I had to say however, palls into insignificance after reading your posts.
What you say about the long range tank is interesting.
Keep going !
Regards,
Mr G.
I too am enjoying your posts.
I made my contribution on page 2 on Jan. 22nd.
What I had to say however, palls into insignificance after reading your posts.
What you say about the long range tank is interesting.
Keep going !
Regards,
Mr G.
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Fuel Capacity ?
After some tinkering with AP over the weekend while we consider what to put in. Another problem is forming in my mind regarding fuel tanks.
When one has wing tanks of capacity ? what happens with the standard firewall tank ?. While sorting out some wiring behind the panel. I noticed that there is only about 4 inches of room between that and the tank. Not enough for the instruments I would like to fit.
Any ideas what is done ?
After some tinkering with AP over the weekend while we consider what to put in. Another problem is forming in my mind regarding fuel tanks.
When one has wing tanks of capacity ? what happens with the standard firewall tank ?. While sorting out some wiring behind the panel. I noticed that there is only about 4 inches of room between that and the tank. Not enough for the instruments I would like to fit.
Any ideas what is done ?
Thread Starter
Oscar D as far as I know, Austers that had wing tanks didn't have an aft of firewall fuselage tank. This would make fitting instruments a lot easier. It also means that you can change the upper engine mounting bolts without removing the fuel tank
I think the wing tanks were either 12 or 16 Imp gallons depending on model.
I've seen the ad for the Gipsy Major 1 on PF. I think they were the 130hp version, the Major 2 being 145hp. Any comments on this chaps and chapesses?
I think the wing tanks were either 12 or 16 Imp gallons depending on model.
I've seen the ad for the Gipsy Major 1 on PF. I think they were the 130hp version, the Major 2 being 145hp. Any comments on this chaps and chapesses?
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Can anyone clear up something I cant get an answer on.
Who holds the design / manufacturing rights for the Auster series of aircraft.
From what the history books tell. The Auster name and designs were sold to Hants & Sussex aviation in 1969 for £ 35,000, when Beagle went to the wall. The beagle name and product line was sold to S.A.L. and went on to producde the pup & Bulldog.
So what happened to the Auster rights. Were there any plans to produce the aircraft again ?
Any ideas / facts.
Who holds the design / manufacturing rights for the Auster series of aircraft.
From what the history books tell. The Auster name and designs were sold to Hants & Sussex aviation in 1969 for £ 35,000, when Beagle went to the wall. The beagle name and product line was sold to S.A.L. and went on to producde the pup & Bulldog.
So what happened to the Auster rights. Were there any plans to produce the aircraft again ?
Any ideas / facts.
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G-APRO/WJ370
This Auster 6A - but not a Tugmaster - (ex-Allen Wheeler) is still very active in the U.S. where it flies as NX370WJ. I am collecting anything and everything about its history (as WJ370 and G-APRO). All stories/anecdotes more than welcome, and in particular, photos, especially in military service. I particularly want info/photos of it in Korea, Cyprus and the Suez campaign. All info please to [email protected]
And if any Austerites are visiting Connecticut - please let me know! There's nothing like a fly up and down the scenic Connecticut River! The Auster is based at Goodspeed, next to the opera house, and 40 minutes outside Hartford. Down for annual right now, up again end of March!
Don't think I'll try anyone's front garden, though.
cheers - John Morris
I recently received a message from my friend Bob Powell, here in the U.S., who has a warehouse of licensed Gipsy parts (very useful). His comments are all grist for the Auster mill:
I am interested in trying to track down photos of G-AMNC, an Autocar, which once belonged to Bristols and finished up in New Zealand but there appears to be some confusion there which aircraft it currently is, assuming it is still airworthy. When I worked for Bristols back in he 50's I flew in it a lot, it was our "corporate aircraft" and I used to go to and from Woodford in it from Filton wearing a flight suit over my business suit, and flying boots in the winter ! We used to park it under a Vulcan to keep the snow and rain off it - compare that with todays executive airplanes ! Once it went u/s and they chartered a Dove for the trip - wow, what luxury ! Still it was fun and different and of course, still steam trains between Bristol and Paddington which I used a lot because our design office was in London.
Thansk Bob! Oh for a Vulcan on every field! All photos (if you have them) to [email protected] and I will forward them to Bob. cheers - John Morris
And if any Austerites are visiting Connecticut - please let me know! There's nothing like a fly up and down the scenic Connecticut River! The Auster is based at Goodspeed, next to the opera house, and 40 minutes outside Hartford. Down for annual right now, up again end of March!
Don't think I'll try anyone's front garden, though.
cheers - John Morris
I recently received a message from my friend Bob Powell, here in the U.S., who has a warehouse of licensed Gipsy parts (very useful). His comments are all grist for the Auster mill:
I am interested in trying to track down photos of G-AMNC, an Autocar, which once belonged to Bristols and finished up in New Zealand but there appears to be some confusion there which aircraft it currently is, assuming it is still airworthy. When I worked for Bristols back in he 50's I flew in it a lot, it was our "corporate aircraft" and I used to go to and from Woodford in it from Filton wearing a flight suit over my business suit, and flying boots in the winter ! We used to park it under a Vulcan to keep the snow and rain off it - compare that with todays executive airplanes ! Once it went u/s and they chartered a Dove for the trip - wow, what luxury ! Still it was fun and different and of course, still steam trains between Bristol and Paddington which I used a lot because our design office was in London.
Thansk Bob! Oh for a Vulcan on every field! All photos (if you have them) to [email protected] and I will forward them to Bob. cheers - John Morris
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Banged my head more than a few times on the gennie propellor! Which reminds me, I once knew a guy called Doug Johnstone who had walked into a spinning gennie prop, and ended up with quite a scar on his face. He owned G-AHSP i think. Wonder where he is now?
Thread Starter
Oscar Deuce Regarding the design authority for Austers, somebody must have it or we'd all be allowed to put them on a PFA Permit!
I don't think there were any plans to make Austers again but maybe Ron Neal would know as he has all the drawings etc to make new bits. Maybe he has the design authority.........
I don't think there were any plans to make Austers again but maybe Ron Neal would know as he has all the drawings etc to make new bits. Maybe he has the design authority.........
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Childhood flights
Now the Chipmunk...aah de Havilland.
Yes indeed! It remains my favorite.
I've flown most of the high-wing taildraggers, including various Cubs and Citabrias, but the venerable Auster is an aeroplane that has so far evaded me. I'd love to fly one.
My first ever flight was in an Auster. It must have been about 1958 or so, and was from Ringway (now Manchester International). I've no idea of the registration. Would anyone know wnat it might have been, and if it is still flying?
A couple of years later, I flew in a high-wing tricycle type (Cessna, probably, though it could have been a TriPacer) from the beach at Morcambe. Anyone offer any info about who/what this may have been?
And my last recollection of childhood flights was in a Rapide out of Lands End. It would have been in the mid 60s. We flew out to the Longships lighthouse and back. I think there were at least 2 other Rapides so employed, in a contiuous shuttle of pleasure flying. Again, I took no registrations, so any info would be most welcome.
SSD
Yes indeed! It remains my favorite.
I've flown most of the high-wing taildraggers, including various Cubs and Citabrias, but the venerable Auster is an aeroplane that has so far evaded me. I'd love to fly one.
My first ever flight was in an Auster. It must have been about 1958 or so, and was from Ringway (now Manchester International). I've no idea of the registration. Would anyone know wnat it might have been, and if it is still flying?
A couple of years later, I flew in a high-wing tricycle type (Cessna, probably, though it could have been a TriPacer) from the beach at Morcambe. Anyone offer any info about who/what this may have been?
And my last recollection of childhood flights was in a Rapide out of Lands End. It would have been in the mid 60s. We flew out to the Longships lighthouse and back. I think there were at least 2 other Rapides so employed, in a contiuous shuttle of pleasure flying. Again, I took no registrations, so any info would be most welcome.
SSD
Thread Starter
SSD if we both make it to the Pprune flyin you're more than welcome to have a whizz about in the Auster. I'm sure you'll enjoy the ineffective ailerons and very effective rudder and elevators. It's heavier on the controls than a Cub but it's worth the effort as they can be thrown around quite nicely.
It's heavier on the controls than a Cub but it's worth the effort as they can be thrown around quite nicely.
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LowNSlow
Very kind offer, and I'll of course reciprocate with the Chippy. But I'm not sure it'll be practical at Duxford - lack of time, busy airfield, extra landing fees etc. Where are you based? Maybe a dedicated trip to a grass strip would be better for this?
SSD
Very kind offer, and I'll of course reciprocate with the Chippy. But I'm not sure it'll be practical at Duxford - lack of time, busy airfield, extra landing fees etc. Where are you based? Maybe a dedicated trip to a grass strip would be better for this?
SSD
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I note that no one has either put their hand up as knowing who owns the Auster design rights or to actually owning these rights.
I also note LownSlow's comment re permits for these fine birds.
I have also heard rumours !? that folk would like to restore Austers on permits (PFA I presume) and that on occassions the CAA have been asked/lobbied. However is this actually happening. I do hope so as I can sadly see that this will be the only route for Austers to survive in any numbers long term.
Yours dreamily
I also note LownSlow's comment re permits for these fine birds.
I have also heard rumours !? that folk would like to restore Austers on permits (PFA I presume) and that on occassions the CAA have been asked/lobbied. However is this actually happening. I do hope so as I can sadly see that this will be the only route for Austers to survive in any numbers long term.
Yours dreamily
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Given that Auster was subsumed into Beagle, it seems logical to assume that the Auster type authority is now owned by BAE Systems. You may recall that in 2002, BAE transferred design authority for the Pup and Bulldog to De Havilland Support Ltd, who also now are the design authorities for the Moth, Dragon, Chippie etc. designs. In retrospect I am surprised that the Auster family was not part of the Pup deal.