Rollason Condor memories
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Rollason Condor memories
I own two of these lovely little aeroplanes G-AVXW and G-AXGZ having learnt on them at Rochester with Universal Flying Services nearly 30 years ago.Lets hear all your reminisces about those "Condor moments" good or bad.Especially of interest would be the history of AVXW before Hairyplane and I formed the Medway Flying Group with her in the late seventies.I believe she was at Portsmouth with the "Electric Light Flying group" any info??.I,ve met several people who trained on my individual craft ,lovely to hear from them especially first solos.Super aeroplanes, training on them has set me in good stead for my flying career and "vintage dabblings"(thanks largely to hairyplane).So come on you Rollason fans lets give the Miles thread a run for its money!!.
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There is a wonderful quote from one of the Tiger Club books which goes something like:
"Tell me Norman, will you ever make money with the Condor?"
Norman Jones: "Oh yes, I've got it all worked out, I've only got to make them twice as fast for half as much and I'll do it!"
Great little aeroplanes!
"Tell me Norman, will you ever make money with the Condor?"
Norman Jones: "Oh yes, I've got it all worked out, I've only got to make them twice as fast for half as much and I'll do it!"
Great little aeroplanes!
Did my PPL in them at Sth Yks FC in 1970. Soloed in G-AYFF - one of those with the supersonic wingtip mod.
Main memenory is the horse problem. Gyppos used to let their nags graze on the field overnight. My instructor was the CFI, ex RAF, great bloke. One day the nags had really got to him. I was in for the first slot. Misty morning, nags everywhere. He winds up the trusty Condor. Trundles over the grass towards the nearest nag, who does not get alarmed until the last moment. CFI climbs to 2000' over the field. So, half an hour after take-off, we do a wingover and VNE dive towards the greatest clump of nags, pulling up at 0'. Never knew the Condor was semi-aerobatic until then!
Main memenory is the horse problem. Gyppos used to let their nags graze on the field overnight. My instructor was the CFI, ex RAF, great bloke. One day the nags had really got to him. I was in for the first slot. Misty morning, nags everywhere. He winds up the trusty Condor. Trundles over the grass towards the nearest nag, who does not get alarmed until the last moment. CFI climbs to 2000' over the field. So, half an hour after take-off, we do a wingover and VNE dive towards the greatest clump of nags, pulling up at 0'. Never knew the Condor was semi-aerobatic until then!
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Aaaaaaah! Condor Moments
Affectionately dubbed the 'RODNOC' I learned on them at Rochester in 75 with Stampe - now a multi-squillion-hour jet captain and me - still a hobby pilot...
I did my first solo in G-AXGS and also flew G-AWSN and G-ATAU. I didn't like AU much - it was an early machine with a short stick and was generally unpleasant to fly.
We also had privately-owned G-AYZT - I think I am correct on the reg. - at Rochester. It had a glider hook on it. I believe it is no more - crashing fatally on a glider-towing sortie?
Great little plane that were generally sneered at in the 70's mainly because they were pretty much all leased out for tuppence-hapenny to flying schools, were operated on the cheap, lived outdoors and were all sheds.
A few anecdotes - My mate Barry Johnson turned up for an early solo sortie wearing a seriously high pair of Gary Glitter-type platform boots.
His landing was a sight! His foot slipped off the rudder pedal (surprise surprise) and he ended up in the long grass.
Watching him climb out of the plane - AbFab style - hobbling around on those seriously silly boots was so funny!
Indicative of the standard of the old Universal Flying Services Rodnocs in those days - I hired SN and, as you do, waggled the wingtip (why do we all do that on a preflight?) Anyway - good job I did because the entire wingtip came off in my hand....
THere was a spate of props breaking up (Evra?) and one aircraft duly landed in a school field following a failure on climbout.
One of the instructors duly turned up, carefully paced the field and decided that he could just get it off without the need to have it taken to bits.
Prop-fitted, the engine was running when - guess what? - Ross Skinner - CFI, ex-Spitfire pilot and really big guy at the time said - 'I can't let you do this on your own - I'm coming with you.
Well - you didn't argue with Ross - especially if he had 'downed a few' - so off this thing staggered, undoubtedly overweight and - well - I remember a photo of it nose-high between 2 houses....It seemed to fall out of sight once it had cleared the rooftops but them miraculously reappeared again. All built up housing estate. Crazy....
Has anybody got a copy of photo?
Plenty more stories but I'll leave you with this one.
Local Plod wanted to mount an exercise involving drugs being flown in by light aircraft.
Across the grass scorched the plain clothes feds - Sweeney style - in their Cortina towards the 'target' Rodnoc.
Trouble was, the grass was wet.
Bang!
It skidded into the side of the fuz in a shower of plywood.
Bugg@r..................
I am sure I 'll think of more stories.
You'll need them Stampe if you are even remotely going to compete with the success of my MMMmmmiles thread!
HP
Aaaaah! Condor!
I did my first solo in G-AXGS and also flew G-AWSN and G-ATAU. I didn't like AU much - it was an early machine with a short stick and was generally unpleasant to fly.
We also had privately-owned G-AYZT - I think I am correct on the reg. - at Rochester. It had a glider hook on it. I believe it is no more - crashing fatally on a glider-towing sortie?
Great little plane that were generally sneered at in the 70's mainly because they were pretty much all leased out for tuppence-hapenny to flying schools, were operated on the cheap, lived outdoors and were all sheds.
A few anecdotes - My mate Barry Johnson turned up for an early solo sortie wearing a seriously high pair of Gary Glitter-type platform boots.
His landing was a sight! His foot slipped off the rudder pedal (surprise surprise) and he ended up in the long grass.
Watching him climb out of the plane - AbFab style - hobbling around on those seriously silly boots was so funny!
Indicative of the standard of the old Universal Flying Services Rodnocs in those days - I hired SN and, as you do, waggled the wingtip (why do we all do that on a preflight?) Anyway - good job I did because the entire wingtip came off in my hand....
THere was a spate of props breaking up (Evra?) and one aircraft duly landed in a school field following a failure on climbout.
One of the instructors duly turned up, carefully paced the field and decided that he could just get it off without the need to have it taken to bits.
Prop-fitted, the engine was running when - guess what? - Ross Skinner - CFI, ex-Spitfire pilot and really big guy at the time said - 'I can't let you do this on your own - I'm coming with you.
Well - you didn't argue with Ross - especially if he had 'downed a few' - so off this thing staggered, undoubtedly overweight and - well - I remember a photo of it nose-high between 2 houses....It seemed to fall out of sight once it had cleared the rooftops but them miraculously reappeared again. All built up housing estate. Crazy....
Has anybody got a copy of photo?
Plenty more stories but I'll leave you with this one.
Local Plod wanted to mount an exercise involving drugs being flown in by light aircraft.
Across the grass scorched the plain clothes feds - Sweeney style - in their Cortina towards the 'target' Rodnoc.
Trouble was, the grass was wet.
Bang!
It skidded into the side of the fuz in a shower of plywood.
Bugg@r..................
I am sure I 'll think of more stories.
You'll need them Stampe if you are even remotely going to compete with the success of my MMMmmmiles thread!
HP
Aaaaah! Condor!
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If you find one of your Condors is unstable in pitch, give me a shout.
Back in the seventies, I helped sort out one of Three Counties Condors which had a variable incidence wing ! The aircraft was occasionally snagged for being unstable on the approach but we all thought it was inexperience on the part of the student. Only after the CFI declared it unflyable did we look seriously for the problem and we were horrified to find the rear wing attachment bolts had worn slots in the fuselage frame due to incorrect torque loading. The wing trailing edge was moving up and down about 6 inches!!
The interesting thing is that it was used almost exclusively by one particular student who didn't like Cessna "tin-toys" and he thought that was the way it was meant to fly !
Back in the seventies, I helped sort out one of Three Counties Condors which had a variable incidence wing ! The aircraft was occasionally snagged for being unstable on the approach but we all thought it was inexperience on the part of the student. Only after the CFI declared it unflyable did we look seriously for the problem and we were horrified to find the rear wing attachment bolts had worn slots in the fuselage frame due to incorrect torque loading. The wing trailing edge was moving up and down about 6 inches!!
The interesting thing is that it was used almost exclusively by one particular student who didn't like Cessna "tin-toys" and he thought that was the way it was meant to fly !
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Came back from the States late 70's with shiny PPL all on spam cans.
Used to maintain the Condors at Blackbushe and was suitably amazed at the little wheel at the back. They also had that other interesting machine the fibreglass Wassmer !
The CFI ( Andy ???) decided that no pilot could be complete without tail dragging time so he gave me a quick conversion.
The problem was of course the phobia of hitting the prop with nothing there to "protect" it like the spam cans.
After a couple of tail wheel landings, Andy got out , hoisted the tail up in the air to a very nose down attitude and said " look even then the props a foot clear of the ground"
After that it seemed easier!
Never flew another tail wheel for years ( Done that been there
)
But now fly an Emeraude so flying is back to being a challange again
Used to maintain the Condors at Blackbushe and was suitably amazed at the little wheel at the back. They also had that other interesting machine the fibreglass Wassmer !
The CFI ( Andy ???) decided that no pilot could be complete without tail dragging time so he gave me a quick conversion.
The problem was of course the phobia of hitting the prop with nothing there to "protect" it like the spam cans.
After a couple of tail wheel landings, Andy got out , hoisted the tail up in the air to a very nose down attitude and said " look even then the props a foot clear of the ground"
After that it seemed easier!
Never flew another tail wheel for years ( Done that been there
)But now fly an Emeraude so flying is back to being a challange again
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Hairyplane the dodgy batch of props fitted to the Condors were of British Manufacture called Weyrocs havn,t seen one fitted to a Condor for many years and I believe the one that failed in the incident you describe was one of those very inefficient props .Evra props are very good I,ve had no problems in many years of aviating behind them.G-AXGS was the airframe damaged in the police drugs raid incident. I like you did my first solo at age 19 on that airframe.Its still flying somewhere in the South but was of course built as Norman Jones mount for the 1969 London-Sydney air race and was fitted with a long range belly tank and a bed on the right side of the fuselage!! apparently the fittings were still apparent recently.Norman retired from the race somewhere near Paris I believe!! I guess it was only a token entry to give the marque some publicity.Seem to remember all the competitors got a pilots chronograph free at the start of the race,quite something then.The late Mike Dunk who introduced me to flying in the mid sixties entered the race in a Bonanza with another pilot Schofield?? and they actually made it to Sydney!!.Anyone remember that.Ah Golden days and no GPS.
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Aaaah! Condor...........
Weyroc? I thought that was a posh name for plasterboard...
Sorry Evra, didn't mean it - a big boy typed 'Evra' on my keyboard and ran off....
Another Anecdote - Good Old Geoff Collins (later got his CPL and flew Falcon Jets for Flight refuelling before deciding that he really wanted to be a lab technician....)
THere we were - 3000ft above Detling when he said - Hmmmm... 'The spin is a bit tame if you do it by the book' (no power/ neutral aileron) - 'lets try one with half power and full outspin aileron.'
Well... It was all a predictable blur. Lots of rotations and a sudden recovery with the nose below the vertical, following a full-forward stick input (as opposed to the standard 'check stick forwards').
My straps were tight but I am a big bloke so my head hit the canopy pretty hard but fortunately no damage - to the canopy anyway...
We were pretty low by this time, maybe just a few hundred feet.
He was strangely quiet and ashen faced.
I said 'I didn't think it was going to come out...'
'Nor did I'.....
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
What about the awful twist to lock yellow throttles? Are there any of those still fitted? The Jodel one was a much better arrangement.
I remember flying as a pre-solo student with Brian Webb - last heard of at HeavyLift - Ops Manager
I think I must have twisted the throttle a bit too much because the cable jammed and the throttle wouldn't close below about 1500rpm.
Great fun judging when to pull the mixture! He got it just right.
Fortunately Rochester has a long runway.
HP
Sorry Evra, didn't mean it - a big boy typed 'Evra' on my keyboard and ran off....
Another Anecdote - Good Old Geoff Collins (later got his CPL and flew Falcon Jets for Flight refuelling before deciding that he really wanted to be a lab technician....)
THere we were - 3000ft above Detling when he said - Hmmmm... 'The spin is a bit tame if you do it by the book' (no power/ neutral aileron) - 'lets try one with half power and full outspin aileron.'
Well... It was all a predictable blur. Lots of rotations and a sudden recovery with the nose below the vertical, following a full-forward stick input (as opposed to the standard 'check stick forwards').
My straps were tight but I am a big bloke so my head hit the canopy pretty hard but fortunately no damage - to the canopy anyway...
We were pretty low by this time, maybe just a few hundred feet.
He was strangely quiet and ashen faced.
I said 'I didn't think it was going to come out...'
'Nor did I'.....
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
What about the awful twist to lock yellow throttles? Are there any of those still fitted? The Jodel one was a much better arrangement.
I remember flying as a pre-solo student with Brian Webb - last heard of at HeavyLift - Ops Manager
I think I must have twisted the throttle a bit too much because the cable jammed and the throttle wouldn't close below about 1500rpm.
Great fun judging when to pull the mixture! He got it just right.
Fortunately Rochester has a long runway.
HP
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Oh dear me now that the Condor is on the history and nostalgia site I might have to get close to admitting I'm getting older.
Recall on my PPL course at Doncaster (same one as Skua) I went off on a cross country to East Midlands (Caste Don.. whatever) with only one brake working. Was told to just get on with it. Taxying was a bit banana like but what the heck.
Also recall having the elevator freeze up once. Fortunately I was with an instructor so we just reduced power and descended into warmer air.
Ahhhhhh Condorsssss
Recall on my PPL course at Doncaster (same one as Skua) I went off on a cross country to East Midlands (Caste Don.. whatever) with only one brake working. Was told to just get on with it. Taxying was a bit banana like but what the heck.
Also recall having the elevator freeze up once. Fortunately I was with an instructor so we just reduced power and descended into warmer air.
Ahhhhhh Condorsssss
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Bingoboy sounds a familiar story my licence cross country Rochester-Stapleford-Ipswich-Rochester was done in a Condor with the following defects.:-
1)Suction pump u/s hence no A/H,D.I.
2)Radio U/s flight entirely non radio and the much better for it.
3)Generator U/s so a good battery was fitted before I left and told to prime correctly at each stop to ensure a good start to avoid depleting battery.
4)Flaps unserviceable and taped in the up position.Not a problem because some of the Condors I was learning on had no flaps!.
Other than that it was good ship!!certainly no hairdressers mount.Still remember the day well very enjoyable.Flying training was character forming for me and has stood me in good stead always grateful to the instuctors who taught me.In so many ways they take to the air with me still everytime I fly.just hope my subsequent students feel the same about me.
1)Suction pump u/s hence no A/H,D.I.
2)Radio U/s flight entirely non radio and the much better for it.
3)Generator U/s so a good battery was fitted before I left and told to prime correctly at each stop to ensure a good start to avoid depleting battery.
4)Flaps unserviceable and taped in the up position.Not a problem because some of the Condors I was learning on had no flaps!.
Other than that it was good ship!!certainly no hairdressers mount.Still remember the day well very enjoyable.Flying training was character forming for me and has stood me in good stead always grateful to the instuctors who taught me.In so many ways they take to the air with me still everytime I fly.just hope my subsequent students feel the same about me.
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Hello all - my memories of Condors are brief but all pleasant: I'm member of a group that now owns the aforementioned G-AYFF. Its still in good nick and, yes, it does still have the yellow twist lock throttle. Have heard various stories about the spin, something to do with whether the battery is behind of the cockpit or in the engine compartment?
Makes the average spamcam seem like a Ford Transit - lovely.
Makes the average spamcam seem like a Ford Transit - lovely.
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Aaaaah! Condor........
Hi Bluebeard,
G-AYFF.
I remember 'FF - I think - at WemAir ('Oily' Doyle??) at Biggin Hill in the 70's.
Parked outside in the weather, for sale at the time I believe, it was clearly unloved and - I have to say - a right shed. Even then it looked like it needed a comprehensive overhaul.
I bet it is loved now though!
Get yourselves one of those really nice Jodel throttles, with a proper friction device. I can't imagine you really like the yellow twisty one?
Another anecdote -
We had this crazy guy Wolfgang Shmidt - not of Medway origin you will have deduced - who blagged his company into buying an Aztec (G-ASNA, where are you now) and became their chief pilot with 4 bars overnight. At the time, he had less than 100 hours, no IMC - nothing.
Lots of very interesting stories about Wolfie ( he was always getting lost and on one occasion suffered an engine quit on finals - he actually went round on the live engine. THe tanks were drained afterwards and only unusable fuel was found in the tanks. He had almost literally done a circuit on vapours.)
but this one is Condor-related.
He needed to get to Elstree for maintenance. I left before him. 2 hours later, he still hadn't arrived.
THe guy in the tower called W Drayton I think to find that Wolfie was getting a service over towards Luton I think.... Hopelessly lost again.
Anyway, with impending darkness - but not wanting to lose the petrol money for bringing him back - I waited around until I thought - 'thats it - I have to go.'
I remember - as a 50-hour PPL - skimming the NE corner of the Heathrow zone - power at a higher setting than normal but not flat out - looking down at the red buses (now with their headlights on) thinking - 'not a nice place to get an engine failure - I won't cut it so close next time....'
Bang! Massive vibration, throttle back - OOOOOoooh Sh@t!
Called Mayday - very calm voice on the other end - opened the window to cool myself down - squeezed the throttle open until I felt that the vibration would shake the engine out of its mounts - backed off a bit and then set course for Stapleford.
The look of disappointment on the faces of the crash crew when I stopped 2 feet short of the boundary fence - I didn't have the height to do a proper circuit and landed downhill/ downwind.
What happened? The engine had been - ahem - fully rebuilt and painted a nice gold colour. That didn't stop one of the cylinders cracking all the way around the base. There was hardly any oil in it by then also.
So - Wolfie and I both came home - separately(!) by road.
ILAFFT
HP
G-AYFF.
I remember 'FF - I think - at WemAir ('Oily' Doyle??) at Biggin Hill in the 70's.
Parked outside in the weather, for sale at the time I believe, it was clearly unloved and - I have to say - a right shed. Even then it looked like it needed a comprehensive overhaul.
I bet it is loved now though!
Get yourselves one of those really nice Jodel throttles, with a proper friction device. I can't imagine you really like the yellow twisty one?
Another anecdote -
We had this crazy guy Wolfgang Shmidt - not of Medway origin you will have deduced - who blagged his company into buying an Aztec (G-ASNA, where are you now) and became their chief pilot with 4 bars overnight. At the time, he had less than 100 hours, no IMC - nothing.
Lots of very interesting stories about Wolfie ( he was always getting lost and on one occasion suffered an engine quit on finals - he actually went round on the live engine. THe tanks were drained afterwards and only unusable fuel was found in the tanks. He had almost literally done a circuit on vapours.)
but this one is Condor-related.
He needed to get to Elstree for maintenance. I left before him. 2 hours later, he still hadn't arrived.
THe guy in the tower called W Drayton I think to find that Wolfie was getting a service over towards Luton I think.... Hopelessly lost again.
Anyway, with impending darkness - but not wanting to lose the petrol money for bringing him back - I waited around until I thought - 'thats it - I have to go.'
I remember - as a 50-hour PPL - skimming the NE corner of the Heathrow zone - power at a higher setting than normal but not flat out - looking down at the red buses (now with their headlights on) thinking - 'not a nice place to get an engine failure - I won't cut it so close next time....'
Bang! Massive vibration, throttle back - OOOOOoooh Sh@t!
Called Mayday - very calm voice on the other end - opened the window to cool myself down - squeezed the throttle open until I felt that the vibration would shake the engine out of its mounts - backed off a bit and then set course for Stapleford.
The look of disappointment on the faces of the crash crew when I stopped 2 feet short of the boundary fence - I didn't have the height to do a proper circuit and landed downhill/ downwind.
What happened? The engine had been - ahem - fully rebuilt and painted a nice gold colour. That didn't stop one of the cylinders cracking all the way around the base. There was hardly any oil in it by then also.
So - Wolfie and I both came home - separately(!) by road.
ILAFFT
HP
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Ah bluebeard YFF a very nice aeroplane its restoration by the very talented Alan Caldecot won a pot at the PFA rally in the late eighties or early nineties.Don,t believe all you hear about the Condors spin !!it is a basic trainer after all.Just before I learnt on them the club kept a couple of the Tiger Moths which the Condors had replaced back for spin training as the Condors weren,t then cleared for it but none of the instructors were interested in flying the Tigers which were the same hourly rate as the Condors.Eventually Rollasons decided to get it approved for spinning and a test pilot spent a day at Rochester spinning the dear old Condor from a great height and the type was cleared with a three turn limitation.I guess the spinning report is held by the PFA who now hold all the Rollason design information for the type ,I keep meaning to spend a day at S horeham browsing the paperwork.The dear old condor spins properly in both directions generally quite nose down and winds up into quite a fast rotation which I guess is the reason for the 3 turn limitation.Recovery is prompt with the standard spin recovery drill but I,had students do it incorrectly and start a spin in the opposite direction so unlike modern trainers recovery action needs to be correct.Entry is only approved power off flaps up.If you decide to do it in yours find a good instructor to show you how and have plenty of height I would recommend 5000ft + on entry.Remember if yours is a Permit machine it will not have been required to demonstrate spin recovery on recertification in the way that Cof A examples are.I believe the battery was moved from the firewall to the mid fuselage to move the Cof A rearwards to facilitate spin entry but I,m not sure the current fad of moving the battery forward on Permit aircraft is worth the effort.Any Rollasons people out there who can comment on this!!.Is Dev still about????.But remember we used to be allowed to go off solo as students spinning and Hairyplane and I as brand new PPLs used to go spinning for fun when we couldn,t afford a cross country adventure so it can,t be that much of a terror
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Ah, Condor!
My Condor moment? First hands on take off to touch down of a tail wheeler and my first spin!! (Not at the same time!!)
Thanks to the kind owner at White Waltham many years ago!!
DOC
My Condor moment? First hands on take off to touch down of a tail wheeler and my first spin!! (Not at the same time!!)
Thanks to the kind owner at White Waltham many years ago!!
DOC
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Just to prompt those fading memories the marque has an excellent website at www.rollason-condor.co.uk Well worth al look especially the history section Be really interesting to put early locations/clubs to the individual machines.Although only 49 were built their role as a prolific trainer in the sixties ,seventies and eighties saw initiating a huge number of pilots.
Be really interesting to put early locations/clubs to the individual machines.Although only 49 were built their role as a prolific trainer in the sixties ,seventies and eighties saw initiating a huge number of pilots.
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Stampe, G-AVXW was indeed operated for a while at Portsmouth by the "Electricity Flying Club", in the early 70's I think - the airfield closed in '73, and the EFC operated an Auster Autocrat until about 1970.
G-AXGS is currently operated by a group of three pilots based at Goodwood, looking quite smart and still fitted with the long-range belly tank (the group is looking for another member I believe).
And of course not forgetting the incident with the Condor and the LandRover at Popham, in the early days .....
Slip
G-AXGS is currently operated by a group of three pilots based at Goodwood, looking quite smart and still fitted with the long-range belly tank (the group is looking for another member I believe).
And of course not forgetting the incident with the Condor and the LandRover at Popham, in the early days .....
Slip
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Thanks for that slipslider lovely to think of XW flying from the long gone Portsmouth.I,d love to know where she was between there and the Medway Flying Group being formed with her at Rochester in June 1977.Pity some of the old Rollason employees who built and maintained the breed can,t be found.I have so many questions as to why various things happened during the development of the breed.Had the honour of meeting Frank Hounslow (Chief Engineer )many years ago, sadly he has passed on but his inspection signature in pencil can be found in many places internally on XW where he inspected glue joints.Believe Dev from the Tiger Club hangar at Redhill is still alive and guess I could try and get in touch with Michael Jones who is living in retirement in France I believe.
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Don't want to bring a downer on this thread, but,.......... was the CFI at Fairoaks killed in a Condor crash, early 1970's ? A nice guy, I met him once. Asian I think.
Simon.
Simon.
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Correct Simon 20th July1973 G-ATSK crashed on take off northern boundary of Fairoaks.Remember reading the AIB accident report made very interesting reading quoting from distant memory I believe insufficient distance was allowed for take off ,basically a performance related accident.Given the types extensive usage as an ab initio trainer and glider tug the attrition rate of the breed has been remarkably low.The number that survive is a tribute to the inherent ruggedness of the Rollason built examples.I well remember when they first arrived at Rochester to replace the Tiger Moth the fitters saying they wouldn,t last five minutes.They were proved wrong and they didn,t have to spend lots of time rebuilding crashed examples .It always seemed Rochester had one of its Moths on rebuild after a major accident ,almost a disposable aircraft.I,ll try and dig up the accident report if I can and post further details.