DC-3 (or derivative) prop question

[Jhieminga]

I found this image on the wall in my hotel room today:



Being the curious type, and because I cannot remember ever having seen a DC-3 prop dome like this, I looked it up and it appears to be a cropped version of a Shutterstock image that was printed on canvas. Is this a Li-2 engine perhaps? The fixture on the prop dome almost looks like a Hucks starter fitting but I'm guessing the DC-3/C-47 family never used these. The rest of the image certainly looks like it could be a DC-3 derivative, but which one? Opinions welcome.

[DaveReidUK]

As is often the case, PPRuNe has been there before.

Hand, or rope, starting your aircraft - PPRuNe Forums

See post #4.

[Jhieminga]

Thank you DaveReidUK ! To be honest, I had already decided in my head that it was most likely a Li-2, but I just think it's more fun to share puzzles like this with others. Funnily enough, I have flown in a Li-2 as a passenger (never in a DC-3 or C-47) but although I remember the little spinner-like attachments to the prop domes, I could not have guessed that there was a Hucks starter fitting there. Also, it was quite some time ago. The best photo I have of that aircraft is this one:

Flickr Shortlink

Anyhow, mystery solved, I can sleep easily in this hotel room now

[Less Hair]

We had a starter option like this for the Renault R4 my parents owned. Once we even used it when it did not want to start due to a faulty battery. The crank needed was mounted on the inside of the engine hood. It took quite some effort first and once the engine ran it had to be removed immediately.

[sycamore]

I would think the Hucks starter method would be probably used for primarily cold-weather ops,as a means of turning the engine over,against thickened oil,,and hydraulicing,as it could be done slowly,and saving the battery (s),and manpower,if you are turning 14 or 9 blades.Certainly the prop `boss` appears to be a much more sturdier fitting than the standard H-S dome..
In the Far East ,Twin Pioneers carried carried a pole with a wire(with leather/rope covering)loop at one end,to turn the props for hydraulicing,and/or possibly a last-ditch starting method...I can`t remember whether the `Tweep` had electric or cartridge start,but I think` Brakedwell`might comment..

[First_Principal]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

We had a starter option like this for the Renault R4 my parents owned .. The crank needed was mounted on the inside of the engine hood. It took quite some effort first and once the engine ran it had to be removed immediately.

Friends have a R4 that I worked on recently, still has the crank handle you mention and out of interest I tried using it (successfully) since I was used to such things.

I sold my early cars last year, they both used a crank handle, one exclusively. Interesting to consider that the younger of the two (Model A) was just four years older than the DC-3 when it was new .. the older (Model T) was of course the origin of the Hucks Starter mentioned here. A good example of requiring minimal effort from mankind to make a much bigger noise, MBA types call it bootstrapping

FP

[MrBernoulli]

Originally Posted by Jhieminga

Thank you @DaveReidUK ! To be honest, I had already decided in my head that it was most likely a Li-2, but I just think it's more fun to share puzzles like this with others.

Assuming a photo hasn't been 'flpped', a quick way to visually tell the difference between a C-47/Dakota and a Lisunov 2 is the main passenger entrance door. On the C-47/Dakota the passenger entrance door is on the left-hand side of the fuselage (integrated with a side-hinged cargo door, which the DC-3 did not have); on a Lisunov 2 the passenger door it is on the right, with a top-hinged cargo door on the left.

I haven't seen it mentioned here or in the thread referenced by DaveReidUK, but there is another method of hand-starting the C-47/Dakota/DC-3 that I am aware of from my time flying these aircraft in the 1980s. On the rear bulkhead, near the passenger door, our fleet had a fairly hefty portable starting gadget, consisting of a crank handle attached to a small, lightweight gearbox. If needed, it was taken out of it's bulkhead mount and carried to the engine requiring it's use i.e. when the engine starter motor had gone u/s. A relatively short shaft protruded from the gearbox casing, on the side opposite the crank handle, and this shaft was inserted into a head-height receptacle on the side of the P&W Twin Wasp engine cowling, where it engaged with the large starter flywheel, leaving the gearbox and crankhandle hanging on the outside of the cowling.

The flywheel was usually spun up using battery power, by holding the cockpit starter switch against a spring. After a few seconds of flywheel spin up the starter switch was then pushed to it's opposite spring-loaded setting, which engaged a dog clutch mechanism between the spinning flywheel and the engine. Your properly primed Twin Wasp would then begin to turn over, chuff and burp a few times, and then roar into clattering life, often with a brief cloud of oil smoke, and usually helped along by some fast fettling of the mixture and throttle levers. When the engine was self-sustaining the starter switch was released, springing to it's default central position.

If the starter motor was u/s, the crank-handle-and-gearbox gadget replaced the starter motor for spinning up the flywheel. It took quite some cranking effort to get the heavy flywheel up to any where near the RPM achieved by the battery-powered starter motor, not helped by the head-height position of the gadget when attached to the engine side. It was considered a two-man job to do the cranking, if at all possible.

Once the cranking crew considered the flywheel was spinning as fast as they could physically get it to do so, they yelled at the person in the cockpit who would push the starter switch to engage the dog clutch, thereby beginning the noisy firing up. Bear in mind that during this procedure the cranking crew were standing pretty close to the 11 feet 6 inch diameter, three-bladed, Hamilton Standard prop, which would now begin whirring it's way up to idle RPM. They still needed to disengage the crank handle/gearbox lump from the engine cowling, and avoid the buzz-sawing prop, whilst being subjected to the smoke and rapidly increasing exhaust noise. If the engine didn't fire up at the first attempt, there would likely be a brief verbal trade of insults with the cockpit occupant, covering lack of starting skill, with a complaint about lack of suitable flywheel RPM being thrown back! 🤣

I consider myself fortunate never to have personally needed to undertake this manual starting method, as either crank team or cockpit occupant. However, I did once have an aircraft which was beginning to show signs of tired batteries. I only just got the first engine started from what was clearly a low RPM flywheel. The flight was initially intended to get the aircraft from a remote bush airstrip to a large airport about 40 minutes away, for refuelling, and then return to the bush airstrip. I was sure that if I shut down the engines for the refuel there was a very good chance the batteries would not have enough oomph to fire the first engine again. I decided the aircraft should be returned to home base for rectification, about 90 minutes away, but I still needed refuelling to make that logner journey.

After landing at the large airport the aircraft was parked with the engines remaing running, supervised by the copilot, whilst I ran to the refuelling station, explained the problem, and politely asked if they were willing to do an overwing bowser refuel with one (opposite side) engine running at a time, otherwise the aircraft would AOG in it's present spot. The supervisor surprised me by agreeing to the plan, so after careful briefing with the bowser crew, that is what we accomplished. One engine was shut down, the wing tanks fuelled on that side, then that engine restarted and the other engine shut down etc etc. Worked well, and we got the aircraft to home base where the batteries were swapped out, and we returned to the bush airstrip the same day, to continue operations. 👍🏻

[Asturias56]

Ah yes - with DC-3 operations flexibility was always on show................. and as they were tough airframes you could do things that would bend any other aircraft totally out of shape

[Jhieminga]

As it turns out I do have a few more photos of the Li-2 I flew on back in 1993:

Flickr Shortlink

Flickr Shortlink

Door on the opposite side... check, but there are of course also a few DC-3s that have an entry door on the right side. One example is this one:

Flickr Shortlink

[First_Principal]

Originally Posted by Jhieminga

As it turns out I do have a few more photos of the Li-2 I flew on back in 1993:
https://flic.kr/p/2shHztn

For those of us with experience of these machines that's such an iconic view, looking out across the wing. Here's one of a C-47 we were flying in the murk one day .. interesting to note one or two minor differences...

[sycamore]

382 nuts and bolts holding that outer panel on....

[washoutt]

I have seen most DC-3s with a cover over the wing bolts, this is the first one I see in flight without the cover. Was that cover for protection, or streamline, by the way?

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by washoutt

I have seen most DC-3s with a cover over the wing bolts, this is the first one I see in flight without the cover. Was that cover for protection, or streamline, by the way?

It's not often you hear "DC-3" and "streamlining" in the same sentence.

[Asturias56]

Hey!

Compare it with other aircraft of the time! It is quite streamlined - and at the speeds it reaches a bit fo drag from the nuts and bolts isn't that significant.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by MrBernoulli

Assuming a photo hasn't been 'flpped', a quick way to visually tell the difference between a C-47/Dakota and a Lissunov 2 is the main passenger entrance door. On the C-47/Dakota the passenger entrance door is on the left-hand side of the fuselage (integrated with a side-hinged cargo door, which the DC-3 did not have); on a Lissunov 2 the passenger door it is on the right, with a top-hinged cargo door on the left.

Some earlier DC3s had the passenger door on the right side. It was a customer option. American Airlines main DC3 fleet was built like this, to suit their existing Ground Support Equipment, and others too. There were even a few right-to-left conversions done later. Described here :

The Right Side Door — FLAGSHIP DETROIT FOUNDATION

[dusk2dawn]

How was that Hucks starter thingy installed on the Hamilton Standard 23-E50 hub? In a previous life I worked a lot on these but cannot imagine how they could be mounted on a standard dome.

The LI-2 wing picture does not show the "382 nuts and bolts holding that outer panel on....". ?

[Jhieminga]

They're there! You can just see the covering strip on the bottom right of this photo:

Flickr Shortlink

I used a Chinon 35mm camera with a 50mm lens back then. The C-47 wing photo was taken with a wider lens I'm guessing.

[sycamore]

d-2-d,presumably as the hub and engine are probably `licence-built` copies,the prop hub is probably a bit bigger/longer,possibly a screw-thread(l-h) and then there appear to be 6 bolts(holes) as locking..

[First_Principal]

Originally Posted by Jhieminga

... The C-47 wing photo was taken with a wider lens I'm guessing.

It was a zoom lens on an early Canon digital camera. Having just done the calcs (taking into account the sensor size and aperture etc) I make it an equivalent focal length of circa 31.5mm.

Not wanting to get too far away from the original image you posted (great hotel to have that on the wall btw!) I thought that some may appreciate this photo, given the interest in the wing bolts. I have been intimate with every one of these, and have to say that I don't recollect there being 382 of them .. funny how the mind plays tricks but it seems I had (miss) remembered the number as 365, one for each day of the year but, having just checked out here, it appears to be 328. While unverified I do have the service bulletins etc stacked away somewhere and could check, but that seems like rather too much work - although not as much as inserting and tightening every one of these, even after all these years I still well remember the arm ache from working overhead on that particular job!

[WHBM]

Just to add, the Li-2 which is the Malev of Hungary tribute aircraft was at Duxford in 1988, and took part in the mass DC3 departure to France on the 75th anniversary of D-Day with parachutists. Here's a couple of photos from the day, firstly of the prop hub, for those following the conversation above, and secondly of the US Army parachute display team boarding the aircraft on the right hand side, whereas all the C-47s alongside were boarding on the left.

Now I just wonder if anyone associated with this military display team for the D-Day commemoration quite understood that Malev is the airline from Hungary, who in WW2 were ... er ... on the OPPOSITE side, the Axis side, throughout the conflict. Which did seem a trifle inappropriate for the commemoration.