Handley Page Type O
7 - because they ' developed' the airframe they drew and made every single piece of the aircraft and tested every piece. They started to realise wood with straight grain was best for aircraft production. Any ' wooden' aircraft use ' aviation grade ' timber. This was the start of that specification.
I quote: "...must be straight-grained and perfectly free from knots and other defects".
BTW Handley Page, not page.
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Much to my surprise, according to Wiki, the Rolls-Royce Falcon did have an epicyclic reduction gear. I know they're pretty much standard on radials but it's the first I've heard of one on an inline engine.
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Eagle engine.
It would help if you tried to understand what the rest of us have written. As I wrote before, the Ghost engine was a cast-iron sidevalve and the Hawk (and therefore its derivative, the Eagle) was a separate-cylinder fabricated engine with overhead valves and camshafts. Those engines did not have a reduction gear, and the much later RR engines that did were not epicyclic gears. A reduction gear is not a control gear and my earlier question asked what control gear you referred to.
Many thanks for the comment. I can only repeat what the documentation I have has stated. Allegedly RR put 2 ghost engines together to make a V12. Wether that was 2 actual engines or the internal specifications I don't know.. It is simply what I have read in a document in my possession. In the process they patented what they called an epicyclic control gear. Maybe it ment something different then I simply don't know. If you ' google' epicyclic control gear' it would immediately point you towards planetary gearing.
As to wether or not the eagle engine actually had a reduction gear I would suggest that as the propeller on the Handley page was enormous ( something in the range of 10 to 12 feet from memory) I would suggest the engine spinning at about 1400 rpm it would certainly need a reduction gear.
and if you look at any eagle engine pictures it looks to me suspiciously like a gearbox between engine and prop.
Many thanks
Gary
My copy of 'British Piston Aero-Engines' agrees with Wiki:
From Wiki:
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing
FALCON I, 230 hp, (1916-17), 'Rolls-Royce 190 hp, Mk I', 12-cylinder, upright 60-degree Vee water-cooled, poppet-valve (two- valve engine), Bore/stroke 4 × 5.75in (101.6 × 146.0 mm). Vol. 866.5 cu in. (14.2 litre). Compression ratio 5.15:1, geared, epicyclic .589:1, R.H./L.H. tractor-drive. (Engines with even serial numbers were L.H. tractor but the great majority built were R.H., with odd numbers .) Two Watford magnetos, two Duplex 34 mm Claudel- Hobson carburettors, feeding three-cylinder inlet manifolds. 250 built at Derby and by Brazil Straker. Length 68.0 in; width 40.3 in; height 37.2 in.
I am very sorry if I have upset anyone. But my understanding is that the epicyclic gearing was in fact patented by Rolls Royce. If anyone believes it was ' invented' before please let me know. I can change my details. Going back to the patent it would not have been approved as a patent if it already existed.
Epicyclic gearing was used in the Antikythera Mechanism, circa 80 BCE
Bill Gunston's World Encyclopedia of Aero Engines confirms everybody except the OP's views.
There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle or any other Rolls-Royce aero engine. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.
Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.
Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.
The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.
I assume everybody knows or would realise that the aforementioned Lieutenant Bentley was THE Bentley...
There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle or any other Rolls-Royce aero engine. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.
Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.
Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.
The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.
I assume everybody knows or would realise that the aforementioned Lieutenant Bentley was THE Bentley...
Last edited by DHfan; 7th Mar 2024 at 23:53. Reason: Bentley
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Eagle engine
Bill Gunston's World Encyclopedia of Aero Engines confirms everybody except the OP's views.
There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.
Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.
Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.
The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.
There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.
Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.
Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.
The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.
Bill Gunston's World Encyclopedia of Aero Engines confirms everybody except the OP's views.
There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle or any other Rolls-Royce aero engine. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.
Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.
Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.
The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.
I assume everybody knows or would realise that the aforementioned Lieutenant Bentley was THE Bentley...
There was absolutely no connection between the Rolls-Royce Ghost engine and the Eagle or any other Rolls-Royce aero engine. As stated the Ghost was a side-valve cast-iron monobloc and the Eagle had overhead cams and individual steel forged cylinders with welded water jackets.
Far from R-R not knowing about about the Grand Prix Mercedes, Lieutenant W.O. Bentley (RNAS) of the Admiralty suggested that the Mercedes cylinders would be a good starting point, as R-R only had experience with cast-iron monoblocs.
On the first Sunday of the war the car was towed to Derby by Bentley and his boss where the engine was dismantled by Ernest Hives, later Lord Hives and R-R's chief.
Royce spent nearly a month evaluating alternative engine layouts, taking particular care not to infringe any Mercedes patents. He finally settled on a water-cooled V-12. Bentley suggested the use of aluminium pistons, as opposed to cast-iron.
The Eagle did have epicyclic reduction gear, as did the Condor which followed it. It was only when Rowledge from Napier arrived that R-R switched to spur reduction gears on later versions of the Condor.
I assume everybody knows or would realise that the aforementioned Lieutenant Bentley was THE Bentley...
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Dissenting views ?
Many thanks for your reply. Indeed. I think people forget history can be re-written many times. I have stated I have documentary evidence of all I have said. That doesn't mean it is correct in exactly the same way as it doesn't make other people's views correct. BUT if I can get enough ' differing views' it may be possible to come up with something that is probably correct.
It can be a little difficult reading some of the comments but I fully stand by my statement that it is the most influential aircraft in history. Caused enough dissent already and in the timeline the plane hasn't even got of the ground yet. Still pages of ' firsts' to go.
It can be a little difficult reading some of the comments but I fully stand by my statement that it is the most influential aircraft in history. Caused enough dissent already and in the timeline the plane hasn't even got of the ground yet. Still pages of ' firsts' to go.
It's worth remembering than many UK Schools and colleges list the German war dead as well as the Allied dead on their WW1 memorial boards - it wasn't an "ideological" war - more like an 18th & 19th Century one
That caused me to raise my eyebrows too but on reflection, it was literally the first few days of a war of unknown duration. Nobody knew if the phrase "it will all be over by Christmas" might have been true.
