Handley Page Type O
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Handley Page Type O
Good morning
I have been researching the Handley page type 0 for the last 20 years collecting information.
The more I have the more it is quite clear it is the most important and influential in aviation history.
If anyone has any information they could send me that would be very helpful.
If anyone would like any information I am happy to share.
Gary
I have been researching the Handley page type 0 for the last 20 years collecting information.
The more I have the more it is quite clear it is the most important and influential in aviation history.
If anyone has any information they could send me that would be very helpful.
If anyone would like any information I am happy to share.
Gary
"The more I have the more it is quite clear it is the most important and influential in aviation history."
thats an nteresting claim - I must have missed something?
thats an nteresting claim - I must have missed something?
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Type O
Good evening
just to start a few things off with the Handley page
1 - first aircraft to have a ' specification' as to what was wanted. I think you will agree it's something that ' took off '
2- the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before
3 - in order to get an engine George Sutter had the idea to go to a car maker for the engines as all the aircraft engine manufacturers were busy. The car manufacturer said no. They only made water cooled engines not air-cooled engines for aircraft. But after pressuring the car maker they relented and said ok we will make you an aircraft engine but it will have to be water cooled. I assume you have heard of Rolls Royce... This is how rolls Royce aero started.
4 - rolls Royce decided to put together 2 of their ghost engines.i assume you have heard of a V12 ? This is the first production V12. Do you think the concept worked ? ( There was a prototype V12 marine diesel and Packard may have produced an engine or 2 )
5 - next the came up with a thing called an overhead cam. ( Yes there was a mercedes racing car left behind at a racetrack.) But again this is the first production use of an overhead cam. You probably have one in your car even now ?
6 - however Rolls were particularly pleased with their epicyclic control gear. Which they patented. You have probably never heard of it. The more common name is planetary gearing. In virtually every gearbox and engine in the world.
7 - because they ' developed' the airframe they drew and made every single piece of the aircraft and tested every piece. They started to realise wood with straight grain was best for aircraft production. Any ' wooden' aircraft use ' aviation grade ' timber. This was the start of that specification.
8 - just to give you a feel for the sheer size of this plane it's bigger than a Boeing 737/500. The Boeing has a wingspan of about 96 feet the Handley page is 100feet.
That will do for a start I can go on for pages let me know what you think so far
Gary
I am very sorry if I have upset anyone. But my understanding is that the epicyclic gearing was in fact patented by Rolls Royce. If anyone believes it was ' invented' before please let me know. I can change my details. Going back to the patent it would not have been approved as a patent if it already existed.
As to Development Sopwith and DH had been mentioned. Sopwith I believe kicked out 50 designs in WW1 which is 1 every 4 weeks. I would suggest development in such a short timescale simply isn't possible. It took over a year for the Handley page to take it's first flight and some time later to get it dead right.
As to the overhead cam I again believe it was mercedes who first put an overhead cam in their racing car which was left at brooklands at the start of the war. I would suggest that as rolls Royce didn't race cars they were probably simply unaware of it. If it was to be if interest I believe Aston Martin Vauxhall and a few other car manufacturers would have had more interest in it than Rolls Royce.
Once again I apologise if you find me condescending it most certainly isn't my intention. Everything I have said I have documentary evidence off. That doesn't mean it is correct which is why I am asking questions on this forum.
Lastly as a new member I don't yet have the ability to contact you all individually as I would like to
Many thanks
Gary
just to start a few things off with the Handley page
1 - first aircraft to have a ' specification' as to what was wanted. I think you will agree it's something that ' took off '
2- the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before
3 - in order to get an engine George Sutter had the idea to go to a car maker for the engines as all the aircraft engine manufacturers were busy. The car manufacturer said no. They only made water cooled engines not air-cooled engines for aircraft. But after pressuring the car maker they relented and said ok we will make you an aircraft engine but it will have to be water cooled. I assume you have heard of Rolls Royce... This is how rolls Royce aero started.
4 - rolls Royce decided to put together 2 of their ghost engines.i assume you have heard of a V12 ? This is the first production V12. Do you think the concept worked ? ( There was a prototype V12 marine diesel and Packard may have produced an engine or 2 )
5 - next the came up with a thing called an overhead cam. ( Yes there was a mercedes racing car left behind at a racetrack.) But again this is the first production use of an overhead cam. You probably have one in your car even now ?
6 - however Rolls were particularly pleased with their epicyclic control gear. Which they patented. You have probably never heard of it. The more common name is planetary gearing. In virtually every gearbox and engine in the world.
7 - because they ' developed' the airframe they drew and made every single piece of the aircraft and tested every piece. They started to realise wood with straight grain was best for aircraft production. Any ' wooden' aircraft use ' aviation grade ' timber. This was the start of that specification.
8 - just to give you a feel for the sheer size of this plane it's bigger than a Boeing 737/500. The Boeing has a wingspan of about 96 feet the Handley page is 100feet.
That will do for a start I can go on for pages let me know what you think so far
Gary
I am very sorry if I have upset anyone. But my understanding is that the epicyclic gearing was in fact patented by Rolls Royce. If anyone believes it was ' invented' before please let me know. I can change my details. Going back to the patent it would not have been approved as a patent if it already existed.
As to Development Sopwith and DH had been mentioned. Sopwith I believe kicked out 50 designs in WW1 which is 1 every 4 weeks. I would suggest development in such a short timescale simply isn't possible. It took over a year for the Handley page to take it's first flight and some time later to get it dead right.
As to the overhead cam I again believe it was mercedes who first put an overhead cam in their racing car which was left at brooklands at the start of the war. I would suggest that as rolls Royce didn't race cars they were probably simply unaware of it. If it was to be if interest I believe Aston Martin Vauxhall and a few other car manufacturers would have had more interest in it than Rolls Royce.
Once again I apologise if you find me condescending it most certainly isn't my intention. Everything I have said I have documentary evidence off. That doesn't mean it is correct which is why I am asking questions on this forum.
Lastly as a new member I don't yet have the ability to contact you all individually as I would like to
Many thanks
Gary
Last edited by Gary cw; 3rd Mar 2024 at 14:16. Reason: Explanation
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Recalled there a group named "Bloody Paralyser" formed to build a flying replica in the 1980s - I've wondered several times what happened and just found it - G-BKMG which is still registered - and work seems to still be happening at least on a non flying second version:
https://www.key.aero/article/legacy-bloody-paralyser
https://www.edp24.co.uk/lifestyle/20...orfolk-garage/
https://www.key.aero/article/legacy-bloody-paralyser
https://www.edp24.co.uk/lifestyle/20...orfolk-garage/
Good evening
just to start a few things off with the Handley page
1 - first aircraft to have a ' specification' as to what was wanted. I think you will agree it's something that ' took off '
2- the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before
3 - in order to get an engine George Sutter had the idea to go to a car maker for the engines as all the aircraft engine manufacturers were busy. The car manufacturer said no. They only made water cooled engines not air-cooled engines for aircraft. But after pressuring the car maker they relented and said ok we will make you an aircraft engine but it will have to be water cooled. I assume you have heard of Rolls Royce... This is how rolls Royce aero started.
4 - rolls Royce decided to put together 2 of their ghost engines.i assume you have heard of a V12 ? This is the first production V12. Do you think the concept worked ? ( There was a prototype V12 marine diesel and Packard may have produced an engine or 2 )
5 - next the came up with a thing called an overhead cam. ( Yes there was a mercedes racing car left behind at a racetrack.) But again this is the first production use of an overhead cam. You probably have one in your car even now ?
6 - however Rolls were particularly pleased with their epicyclic control gear. Which they patented. You have probably never heard of it. The more common name is planetary gearing. In virtually every gearbox and engine in the world.
7 - because they ' developed' the airframe they drew and made every single piece of the aircraft and tested every piece. They started to realise wood with straight grain was best for aircraft production. Any ' wooden' aircraft use ' aviation grade ' timber. This was the start of that specification.
8 - just to give you a feel for the sheer size of this plane it's bigger than a Boeing 737/500. The Boeing has a wingspan of about 96 feet the Handley page is 100feet.
That will do for a start I can go on for pages let me know what you think so far
Gary
5- next they cam
just to start a few things off with the Handley page
1 - first aircraft to have a ' specification' as to what was wanted. I think you will agree it's something that ' took off '
2- the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before
3 - in order to get an engine George Sutter had the idea to go to a car maker for the engines as all the aircraft engine manufacturers were busy. The car manufacturer said no. They only made water cooled engines not air-cooled engines for aircraft. But after pressuring the car maker they relented and said ok we will make you an aircraft engine but it will have to be water cooled. I assume you have heard of Rolls Royce... This is how rolls Royce aero started.
4 - rolls Royce decided to put together 2 of their ghost engines.i assume you have heard of a V12 ? This is the first production V12. Do you think the concept worked ? ( There was a prototype V12 marine diesel and Packard may have produced an engine or 2 )
5 - next the came up with a thing called an overhead cam. ( Yes there was a mercedes racing car left behind at a racetrack.) But again this is the first production use of an overhead cam. You probably have one in your car even now ?
6 - however Rolls were particularly pleased with their epicyclic control gear. Which they patented. You have probably never heard of it. The more common name is planetary gearing. In virtually every gearbox and engine in the world.
7 - because they ' developed' the airframe they drew and made every single piece of the aircraft and tested every piece. They started to realise wood with straight grain was best for aircraft production. Any ' wooden' aircraft use ' aviation grade ' timber. This was the start of that specification.
8 - just to give you a feel for the sheer size of this plane it's bigger than a Boeing 737/500. The Boeing has a wingspan of about 96 feet the Handley page is 100feet.
That will do for a start I can go on for pages let me know what you think so far
Gary
5- next they cam
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"But again this is the first production use of an overhead cam."
The Peugeot 500 M motorcycle of 1913 pre-dates this. Peugeot was also designing road cars to use it.
I also take issue with the "first aircraft designed to a Spec" and the "developed" claim. I think the DH.6 may be the first of the former (and other aircraft involved in RFC trainer requirements), and the latter applies to any aircraft which made it past first flight pretty much.
First V12 was 1904, according to the albeit dodgy Wiki. At least three more were developed pre-war and all can be claimed as 'production' engines (i.e. not experimental, and made in numbers for commercial sale). A definition of 'production' for the R-R engine would have to be based on some contrived criteria.
It's an interesting topic, but the "O" series should be considered as interesting and pivotal types without the need for hyperbole.
The Peugeot 500 M motorcycle of 1913 pre-dates this. Peugeot was also designing road cars to use it.
I also take issue with the "first aircraft designed to a Spec" and the "developed" claim. I think the DH.6 may be the first of the former (and other aircraft involved in RFC trainer requirements), and the latter applies to any aircraft which made it past first flight pretty much.
First V12 was 1904, according to the albeit dodgy Wiki. At least three more were developed pre-war and all can be claimed as 'production' engines (i.e. not experimental, and made in numbers for commercial sale). A definition of 'production' for the R-R engine would have to be based on some contrived criteria.
It's an interesting topic, but the "O" series should be considered as interesting and pivotal types without the need for hyperbole.
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I also had three cars with overdrive in the seventies. No other car or motorcycle I've ever owned has had epicyclic gearing. I believe automatic gearboxes use epicyclic gearing, but I've never owned one.
Wiki again, dates the invention back a couple of thousand years. Taking that with the customary pinch of salt, it still predates R-R by many hundreds of years.
Wiki again, dates the invention back a couple of thousand years. Taking that with the customary pinch of salt, it still predates R-R by many hundreds of years.
I'm not against enthusiasts and not even mono-maniacs but I think a wider view would suggest that many of those "firsts" may only be in the UK
There was lots of parallel develoments going on in avaition at that time
Statements such as "the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before" are simply wrong - look at the development of all those WW1 de havillands, or Sopwiths, or....................
There was lots of parallel develoments going on in avaition at that time
Statements such as "the airframe was ' developed' that is something that hadn't happened before" are simply wrong - look at the development of all those WW1 de havillands, or Sopwiths, or....................
Strange interpretation of left behind.
It won the 1914 French Grand Prix.
It's years since I read Sir Geoffrey de Havilland's autobiography, Sky Fever, but I have an idea he mentioned searching out straight-grained timber in 1908-09 to build his first or possibly second aeroplane.
It won the 1914 French Grand Prix.
It's years since I read Sir Geoffrey de Havilland's autobiography, Sky Fever, but I have an idea he mentioned searching out straight-grained timber in 1908-09 to build his first or possibly second aeroplane.
The RAES archive has a couple of fascinating lectures on development of the Handley Page 'large aircraft'.
Sir Frederick was undoubtably a gisted visionary who thought way outside the box and on a vastly larger scale athan anyone else at the time (possibly excepting the genius Sikorsky, and if so Sir Fred was in the most illustrious company indeed), and the aircraft were hugely influential and revolutionary in many ways.
Sir Frederick was undoubtably a gisted visionary who thought way outside the box and on a vastly larger scale athan anyone else at the time (possibly excepting the genius Sikorsky, and if so Sir Fred was in the most illustrious company indeed), and the aircraft were hugely influential and revolutionary in many ways.
4 - rolls Royce decided to put together 2 of their ghost engines.i assume you have heard of a V12 ? This is the first production V12. Do you think the concept worked ? ( There was a prototype V12 marine diesel and Packard may have produced an engine or 2 )
As to the overhead cam I again believe it was mercedes who first put an overhead cam in their racing car which was left at brooklands at the start of the war. I would suggest that as rolls Royce didn't race cars they were probably simply unaware of it. If it was to be if interest I believe Aston Martin Vauxhall and a few other car manufacturers would have had more interest in it than Rolls Royce.
As to the overhead cam I again believe it was mercedes who first put an overhead cam in their racing car which was left at brooklands at the start of the war. I would suggest that as rolls Royce didn't race cars they were probably simply unaware of it. If it was to be if interest I believe Aston Martin Vauxhall and a few other car manufacturers would have had more interest in it than Rolls Royce.
As for Daimler (Mercedes) being the first OHC in 1914, Pomeroy's book "The Grand Prix Car" tells us that the 1912 Peugeot and the 1911 FIAT were OHC. The presumption that as RR did not race they would not have taken any interest in developments of racing engines is just as improbable
Edit to ask: what did the epicyclic control gear you are thinking of control?
Last edited by Allan Lupton; 3rd Mar 2024 at 15:39. Reason: additional comment
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This is misleading: a patent can be approved for something that already exists; it is not a statement of originality. What you may mean is that a patent would not have been approved if it had already been patented. Even then, this is not entirely true: I can patent the use of something as a toothpaste but it could be patented by someone else for a different function.
Boldly stating that something is 'the most important' is always a bad idea, as you're measuring this against your own yardstick and unilaterally declaring a winner. I can think of several types, but also several different yardsticks, and discussing these would be interesting but no doubt we would not end up with the same result that you got. The history of aviation is a long one with several influential types in it, but also with many different paths that lead to where we are now. The O/400 played a part in this, many others have done their best to quantify this and evaluate this influence, discarding all that in one fell swoop is not really fair to those others. At least acknowledge these other views, it's better for the tone of the discussion.
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RR engine
Gary, I for one do not quite see where you are asking questions. You started out with a bold statement, continued to support this by further statements but to you it feels like you're asking questions. I think this thread could have gotten off to a very different start if you had opened with a question. "I get the impression that the Handley Page O/400 is quite an influential and important type... what do you think?" would have been an option.
Boldly stating that something is 'the most important' is always a bad idea, as you're measuring this against your own yardstick and unilaterally declaring a winner. I can think of several types, but also several different yardsticks, and discussing these would be interesting but no doubt we would not end up with the same result that you got. The history of aviation is a long one with several influential types in it, but also with many different paths that lead to where we are now. The O/400 played a part in this, many others have done their best to quantify this and evaluate this influence, discarding all that in one fell swoop is not really fair to those others. At least acknowledge these other views, it's better for the tone of the discussion.
Boldly stating that something is 'the most important' is always a bad idea, as you're measuring this against your own yardstick and unilaterally declaring a winner. I can think of several types, but also several different yardsticks, and discussing these would be interesting but no doubt we would not end up with the same result that you got. The history of aviation is a long one with several influential types in it, but also with many different paths that lead to where we are now. The O/400 played a part in this, many others have done their best to quantify this and evaluate this influence, discarding all that in one fell swoop is not really fair to those others. At least acknowledge these other views, it's better for the tone of the discussion.
The only thing in common between the RR Ghost engine and the Hawk is the number of cylinders. The Ghost is a cast iron side-valve engine and the Hawk is a fabricated separate-cylinder with overhead valves and camshaft. Doubling up for a V12 does not change that
As for Daimler (Mercedes) being the first OHC in 1914, Pomeroy's book "The Grand Prix Car" tells us that the 1912 Peugeot and the 1911 FIAT were OHC. The presumption that as RR did not race they would not have taken any interest in developments of racing engines is just as improbable
Edit to ask: what did the epicyclic control gear you are thinking of control?
As for Daimler (Mercedes) being the first OHC in 1914, Pomeroy's book "The Grand Prix Car" tells us that the 1912 Peugeot and the 1911 FIAT were OHC. The presumption that as RR did not race they would not have taken any interest in developments of racing engines is just as improbable
Edit to ask: what did the epicyclic control gear you are thinking of control?
Many thanks for the reply. The 2 ghost engines were combined to produce the Eagle engine
As to the gearing I believe it was to reduce the crank revolutions for the propeller
Many thanks
Gary
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Patents.
This is misleading: a patent can be approved for something that already exists; it is not a statement of originality. What you may mean is that a patent would not have been approved if it had already been patented. Even then, this is not entirely true: I can patent the use of something as a toothpaste but it could be patented by someone else for a different function.
but it's easy enough to look up on Google
Many thanks
Gary