Douglas Bader in the modern era?
He had a batman assigned to him while in PoW camp. The batman was offerred compassionate exchange/return. Bader refused to let him go, because he needed him. His arrogance and undue influence were well documented by Iohn Terrane in 'Right of the Line'.
To the OP.
Don't forget that when trying to draw comparisons between "then" and "now" in terms of how Bader was treated, he wasn't allowed to fly in the RAF back "then" either.
He was medically discharged as unfit to fly after recovery from his accident. He was only eventually allowed back in after the outbreak of war.
As to the guy's character. i met him twice, once when I was a serving officer, and once when I was a civilian. I don't think that I have ever met anyone so arrogant and thoroughly unpleasant.
Don't forget that when trying to draw comparisons between "then" and "now" in terms of how Bader was treated, he wasn't allowed to fly in the RAF back "then" either.
He was medically discharged as unfit to fly after recovery from his accident. He was only eventually allowed back in after the outbreak of war.
As to the guy's character. i met him twice, once when I was a serving officer, and once when I was a civilian. I don't think that I have ever met anyone so arrogant and thoroughly unpleasant.
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I too had the misfortune of meeting him in 1969 or 70. My mother (English) had re-married to a USAF NCO and we were all based at Wethersfield. The NCO did a years' tour at Ubon in Thailand, and had somehow wangled it that he would get another UK posting after Thailand. (He did - Lakenheath). Whilst he was away my mother got herself busily occupied with good works, and was on the base's Anglo American Committee, the purpose of which was to foster good relations between the base and the local community (I seem to recall it was about the time that an F-100 dumped his drop tanks on Sible Hedingham) and my mother was deemed a good fit as she was a good mixer, and whilst English, she was married to an American...
One summer's day there was a Garden Party hosted by Sir John Ruggles-Bryce, at his gaff near Finchingfield, who I believe was the Lord Lieutenant of Essex at the time.
Anyway, long story short, my mother asked if I would be her escort for the bash, which as a spotty 18/19 year old I was both chuffed and terrified to do! And HE was there...
At some point I summoned the courage to introduce myself to him, and to say what a privilege it was to meet him. He looked at me, turned as quickly as he could and walked off without saying a word. Hero to zero in less than a nanosecond.
One summer's day there was a Garden Party hosted by Sir John Ruggles-Bryce, at his gaff near Finchingfield, who I believe was the Lord Lieutenant of Essex at the time.
Anyway, long story short, my mother asked if I would be her escort for the bash, which as a spotty 18/19 year old I was both chuffed and terrified to do! And HE was there...
At some point I summoned the courage to introduce myself to him, and to say what a privilege it was to meet him. He looked at me, turned as quickly as he could and walked off without saying a word. Hero to zero in less than a nanosecond.
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A friend of my late father was a carpenter, fitting out rooms in the mess at RAF Coltishall when DB took over 242sqn. It seems that he was very vocal in what he did and didn't want, and made his views well known to the chippy. Being a good old Norfolk boy, he didn't like this and stood up to the man. After that, things were much more pleasant.
I also knew a few people who met DB during his time at Shell aircraft. The consensus being that he was someone living off his past reputation as a war leader. He'd make decisions then leave the paperwork and follow-up to underlings. After he left SA, and then died, Lady B would make the odd visit to HQ and complain loudly if anything had been moved or changed. Apparently DB would not have approved of this or that.
We're all looking back close to 80 years, and opinions will doubtless change. At the time, like many other war heroes he was used as an inspiration to others. That may have lead to more unfortunate character traits.
I also knew a few people who met DB during his time at Shell aircraft. The consensus being that he was someone living off his past reputation as a war leader. He'd make decisions then leave the paperwork and follow-up to underlings. After he left SA, and then died, Lady B would make the odd visit to HQ and complain loudly if anything had been moved or changed. Apparently DB would not have approved of this or that.
We're all looking back close to 80 years, and opinions will doubtless change. At the time, like many other war heroes he was used as an inspiration to others. That may have lead to more unfortunate character traits.
Originally Posted by Commander Taco
Bader was transferred out of Stalag Luft III in 1942. All raised a cheer as he left through the camp gates. Bader thought he was getting a rousing send off for being such a fine fellow. That’s not why the crowd was cheering.
My late Father was one of those cheerers. He also had the misfortune to meet him professionally post war, and according to my Mother it was one of the few times my Father ever swore in her presence.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Originally Posted by chevvron
Back in the days when Bader was a board member of the CAA, he committed a very serious airspace infringement.
We and a neighbouring ATC unit duly filled in all the paperwork and submitted it and were told 'forget it; it never happened'.
We and a neighbouring ATC unit duly filled in all the paperwork and submitted it and were told 'forget it; it never happened'.
To enlarge on my quote, we (Farnborough) were asked by Gatwick ATC to assist in tracking an aircraft which had been seen just west of Gatwick and they'd had to stop departures because ot it. We tracked it as it headed towards the Greenham Common area and at one point vectored a Wessex helicopter from Odiham towards it but it was too fast for the Wessex. Meantine Redhill had told Gatwick that G-APUB had departed from them at the time the unknown aircraft had departed. We looked at the register and found that this aircraft was registerd to Gpt Capt D.R.S. Bader.
We watched as this aircraft flew towards Blackbushe and flew through and around its circuit for a while, then he called up on our LARS frequency.
The controller identified him and then advised that he had not only infringed the Blackbushe ATZ but had also infringed the Gatwick CTR.
He laughed and replied 'Oh have I really?'
Gatwick and ourselves duly filled in the paperwork but before we could submit it, were told 'Forget it; it never happened'.
Originally Posted by Mr Mac
Commander Taco
My late Father was one of those cheerers. He also had the misfortune to meet him professionally post war, and according to my Mother it was one of the few times my Father ever swore in her presence.
Cheers
Mr Mac
My late Father was one of those cheerers. He also had the misfortune to meet him professionally post war, and according to my Mother it was one of the few times my Father ever swore in her presence.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Have you visited Stalag Luft III? If not, I can highly recommend a visit. Mrs. T and I day a day trip to Sagan last September and were guided by Marek, the museum curator. I don't imagine that your father spoke much about his time there; my father-in-law was a Lancaster pilot at war's end and the war wasn't something he wanted to talk about. However if you haven't visited, or are unable to, I highly recommend two books to you that I picked up in the Stalag Luft III gift shop.
1/ "Stalag Luft III The Secret Story" by Arthur A. Durand. His book details every facet of the daily lives of the POWs.
2/ "From Commandant to Captive" - the memoirs of camp commandant Colonel Lindeiner
I'm sure they can be purchased without visiting the museum. I have the contact details for Marek if you so wish.
Cheers,
~Taco
Bader was, by any standards, an exceptional man - the fact he achieved so much meant a lot of people thought he was perfect - he wasn't of course. Few people ever are.
I think the strength of the reaction is due to a terrible sense of disappointment
Bill Speakman VC is another hero who was mortal in normal life
I think the strength of the reaction is due to a terrible sense of disappointment
Bill Speakman VC is another hero who was mortal in normal life
Bader may have been an exceptional man but he and Leigh Mallory weren't very helpful to Hugh Dowding and Keith Park, both of whom were the real heros in my opinion. I have never met Bader but I have sat at a dinner with someone who knew him very well indeed and who told me he was an extremely difficult man to work with and to live with.
Like most people of my vintage I grew up seeing Bader as a great man. Then, in the late 60's, I went out a few times with a young lady whose parents were friends of Bader. She told me that she hated it when he came to stay with them. She described a typical incident when, if he left something downstairs after having gone up to bed, he would tramp down the stairs swearing loudly at every step. He didn't seem to care about anyone else in the house.
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I remember reading 'Fly for your life' (Bob Tuck's biography) a few years ago. He and DB had a 'full and frank' exchange of views at a conference at HQ Fighter Command.
Afterwards Tuck asked Sailor Malan why Bader was so damned awkward. 'If he wasn't he wouldn't be here' said Sailor. I guess that sums him up pretty well?
Afterwards Tuck asked Sailor Malan why Bader was so damned awkward. 'If he wasn't he wouldn't be here' said Sailor. I guess that sums him up pretty well?
" if he left something downstairs after having gone up to bed, he would tramp down the stairs swearing loudly at every step"
I first met him on a flight of stairs in the '70's - he was coming up 3 stories (no lift) on his own having to swing his legs in a great arc for each step. It looked (and I'm sure it was) extremely uncomfortable and painful. He stopped to let me go down but the look on his face suggested that anything other than a short nod and the politest of "good morning' Sir" would have led to instant death.
I first met him on a flight of stairs in the '70's - he was coming up 3 stories (no lift) on his own having to swing his legs in a great arc for each step. It looked (and I'm sure it was) extremely uncomfortable and painful. He stopped to let me go down but the look on his face suggested that anything other than a short nod and the politest of "good morning' Sir" would have led to instant death.
Bergerie 1 - Agreed ! I could not (cannot) understand what gave Bader his particular influence with Leigh-Mallory, other than their joint insistence on the 'Big Wing' tactics. Park was remarkably long-suffering in putting up with their interference.
