Vanguard limiting speeds

[bean]

What was the Mno of the Ferguson tractor?

[DHfan]

The Standard engine was designed by Standard themselves, for use in their own cars and the Ferguson tractor. It wasn't a Ferguson engine.

[longer ron]

We were over on Skye/Rassay in 2020 for a weeks holiday and came across this 'classic' tractor in lovely condition c/w 'Standard Motor Co' Manufacturing Plate.
Sorry a bit slow posting the pics but we had used the bosses camera and I was away from home yesterday.

[bean]

As the originator of this thread
if there are any more posts about tractors i will delete the thread

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by bean

As the originator of this thread
if there are any more posts about tractors i will delete the thread

If only you'd ignored the first post that brought up tractors, we'd probably have been still on-topic.

[bean]

Davereid. Oh so smug, i used to respect you

[Discorde]

The Vanguard (flying machine) did have tractor propellers bolted on to its Tynes . . .

[bean]

Originally Posted by Discorde

The Vanguard (flying machine) did have tractor propellers bolted on to its Tynes . . .

Ha Ha i like

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by bean

Davereid. Oh so smug, i used to respect you

Please yourself. Personally, I've found this a fascinating thread with a number of very interesting on-topic posts. It's not me who's threatening to delete them all.

[DaveReidUK]

Getting back on topic, and apropos the lovely photo in post #38, does anyone know if Brooklands still fire up Echo Papa from time to time ?

Edit: a bit of Googling reveals that it can't be run in its current location. Oh, well ...

[megan]

bean, since I'm a collector of flight manuals I got myself a Air Canada Vickers Vanguard flight manual as a belated birthday present. Extracted figures below

Emergency Descent Speed, 350 knots, sea level to 10,000 feet. Above 10,000 feet reduce airspeed 5 knots/1,000 feet to 275 knots at 15,000 feet

Maximum Operating Speed, Vmo Speed varies with altitude and depends on zero fuel weight, select from graph




Manoeuvering Speed, Va 204 knots IAS

Autopilot Engaged Speed, all speeds up to Vmo

Maximum Operating Altitude 25,000 feet

Maximum Crosswind, Take Off 26 knots, Landing 27 knots

Flaps Extended Speed, Vfe (Maximum speeds for extending or flying with flaps extended)

Take Off 20° 200 knots

Approach & Landing 30° or 40° 162 knots

Landing Gear Raising Speed, Vlo 180 knots

Landing Gear Lowering Speed, Vle 200 knots

Maximum for Flight With Gear Down, 200 knots

Landing Light Lowering Speed, 200 knots

Landing Light Operation: Ground operation on “Land” selection is limited to two minutes. No limitation is imposed on the taxi lights.

Minimum Control Speed, Vmcg & Vmca, Refer to the Performance chapter for minimum control speeds on the ground (Vmcg) and in the air (Vmca) with one outboard engine inoperative

Windscreen Wipers Max Operating Speed, 250 knots

PS: There is no barber pole.

[john_tullamarine]

The Vanguard was an amazing aircraft perfectly capable of equalling or beating jet block times on sectors up to 1.30.

Likewise the L188 would show a clean pair of heels to the jets on shorter legs. MEL-LST we used to kill them stone dead for sector time.

Came down impressively as well. I recall one 0-dark-30 LST-SYD sector where we were pretty well empty and decided to run at FL300 (I think that was the maximum level - the memory fades after too many decades), just for fun. ATC near had an apoplexy when we maintained cruise level until passing the north shore of Botany Bay ... still had to put on a bit of power to keep on final slope, landing into the south. Ah, memories.

[Herod]

Hi Megan. That seems to confirm my post way back at the beginning, #2 I think. No limiting Mach number, because at 25,000' it wouldn't come into the range. I still maintain that the change-over from IAS to Mach occurs, for most aircraft, about 28,000'

[bean]

Originally Posted by Herod

Hi Megan. That seems to confirm my post way back at the beginning, #2 I think. No limiting Mach number, because at 25,000' it wouldn't come into the range. I still maintain that the change-over from IAS to Mach occurs, for most aircraft, about 28,000'

Herod. I'm sure you realize that the reason Vmo imcreases is because Tas is below limiting mach number which for the Vanguard appears to be about 0.58 quite reasonable compared to the Electras.615

[bean]

Thank god we are back on track after drivel abou tractors

[bean]

Megan, many thanks for your very helpful post

[Herod]

Megan: Agreed. My point is that the average turbo-prop isn't going to get high enough or fast enough for Mach to be a factor. We took the C-130 up to the low thirty thousands, and used airspeed limits.There was no way that aircraft would approach a critical Mach No. I've been up higher in jets, which of course are generally faster machines, and on all three types of jet I've operated, the transition from IAS to Mach was around 28,000'.

[bean]

Originally Posted by Herod

Megan: Agreed. My point is that the average turbo-prop isn't going to get high enough or fast enough for Mach to be a factor. We took the C-130 up to the low thirty thousands, and used airspeed limits.There was no way that aircraft would approach a critical Mach No. I've been up higher in jets, which of course are generally faster machines, and on all three types of jet I've operated, the transition from IAS to Mach was around 28,000'.

Herod, i understand but, with a Vno of 320 knots, if you tried to descend a vanguard from even 20000 feet at that ias you would get a mach number of 0.71 using isa tables. You can't do that in a straight winged turboprop. Take a look at Discordes post. He explains descent speed in the Vanguard. I might add that i have considerable respect for your experience and am enjoying our friendly discourse

[Herod]

Thanks, bean. Yes, agreed about 320 knots, but unless I've read it wrong, Discorde quotes "Vno = 303 minus altitude (in thousands of feet).". That being the case, at 20,000, the Vno would be 283 kts. I'll put a caveat on my statements: I haven't flown a turboprop since early '89 (33 years ago F-27), nor any aircraft since late '04 (17+ years ago B-737), so maybe I'm relying on dim and distant memories. However, I'm also enjoying the thread.

[Jhieminga]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

Getting back on topic, and apropos the lovely photo in post #38, does anyone know if Brooklands still fire up Echo Papa from time to time ?

Edit: a bit of Googling reveals that it can't be run in its current location. Oh, well ...

It's not just the location. The Vanguard last moved under her own power on 29th May 2004, after which she was moved across the river to the aircraft park in the museum grounds. By that time the Tynes were already consuming almost as much oil as fuel during each run as the internal seals were, let's say, not in perfect condition anymore. Once in the aircraft park, the Vanguard was positioned in such a way that the engines could be run, and she did enjoy a couple of runs since then. Not all that much though, as the next gremlin that popped up was corroding starters. The housing on the Tyne starters was crumbling away and finding new ones was proving next to impossible (have a look at the images in the first post here to see what I mean). I am not sure, but I understand that the Transall installation uses a different starter, or a different mounting... don't quote me on that though.

When G-APEP landed at Brooklands in 1996 the expectation was that they would be able to keep her 'live' for a few months at most. In the end she enjoyed eight more years of moving around and a couple more of firing up the Tynes. Not bad if you ask me.

The Vanguard is positioned in such a way that there are no other aircraft behind the left wing, but the Vickers Viking has been reassembled behind the Vanguard's right wing so running those engines wouldn't be very nice for the team looking after the Viking. There is some hard surfacing beneath the props to deal with the threat of picking up stones, dust and such.

I finally found a useful flightdeck photo, and a nice one of all four Tynes running that I took in 2000.