Vanguard limiting speeds

[bean]

I understand the Vanguard had a Vno of 320 knots, i expect it had a limiting mach number, what was it please? Did the asi have a barbers pole?
Thanks on advance ex Vanguard guys

[Herod]

I've not flown the Vanguard, but from experience of aircraft of that era, I wouldn't expect a barber's pole. I wouldn't think a limiting Mach Number either. Digging into a very old memory bank, the crossover between IAS and Mach occurs about 28,000 ft. Below that, IAS is the figure.

[bean]

Thanks Herod. The q400 as an example has a limiting mach number of .55 so crossover occurs much lower

[bean]

146 was .65 was'nt it?

[bean]

I guess 320 knots may have been limited to a specific lower altitude

[dixi188]

Don't know about the Vanguard.
The L188 electra (similar type) was IIRC Vmo 300kts, Vne 317kts, Mne .615. No mach meter fitted just a placarded limit.
Dixi.

[bean]

Thanks dixi. Interesting topic even though i say it myself!

[TCU]

Extract from the Chapter entitled Vickers Vanguard from Brian Trubshaw's excellent book, Test Pilot:

"Another interesting feature of the Vanguard was the relatively high speed envelope. Demonstration of this was made by flying down the design speed diving line (VD). At about 12,000ft the design limit was some 400kt.".....the aircraft itself handled beautifully...".

He also describes flying the Vanguard on a sales tour between Cairo and Beirut "...did the trip in one hour and five minutes flying at 1,000ft at over 300kt indicated...."

I appreciate there are some gaps in this data and Trubshaw was of course a test pilot flying a manufacturers prototype, but seems the Vanguard was a speedy machine despite being "....a great tub of an aircraft...." (Trubshaw)

Trubshaw records he was rather fond of the Vanguard but his test flying of the type was interrupted by the VC10 development.

[bean]

Thanks TCU. VD would if course be beyond Vno. I'm going to do some tables tomorrow given the Electra speeds Dixi 188 has kindly provided. Bit of work but hey, keeps a retired brain occupied!
I'll post them here

[Meikleour]

bean: I flew 2,000 hrs on Vanguard/Merchantmen but alas the VNE escapes the old grey cells now but what I do remember clearly is we used to climb clean at 290 kts ind. and descend at 300 kts ind. I am also pushed to ever remember flying much above 25,000 ft. Probably as a result of concerns after the rear pressure bulkhead blowout in 1971. Thus Mach was never ever considered.

A cruising TAS of 360 kts was normal so I guess IAS of 280 - 285 ish

[bean]

Thanks, i'm talking about speeds in decent.
i'm going to do some tables based on dixi188s electra figures which i'll post here. Very interesting

[Eric T Cartman]

I can't answer the OP's query but have an anecdote re the Merchantman & speed. I was on Approach Radar at Glasgow in the late 70's when I had to ask a Merchantman to reduce speed from 250 knots as he was rapidly hoovering up the Dan Air Comet ahead of him. I'm sure there was a chuckle in the ABC Captain's reply when he asked what speed I would like.

[BEagle]

A cruising TAS of 360 kts would mean, under ISA condtions, an IAS of 282 kts at 17000ft - which I think was the cruising level, if memory serves, of the first airline flight on which I was a passenger from London to Gibraltar with BEA in 1965.

TMN of M0.58

[Jhieminga]

I'm pretty sure that there is no barberpole on the ASI in a Vanguard, but I cannot find the photo to confirm this right now.
This will do: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9124318
G-APEP has an interesting ASI with two pointers. The 'barberpole' on the altimeter is no doubt there to indicate no or unreliable altitude information.

[Chesty Morgan]

Originally Posted by bean

146 was .65 was'nt it?

The -100 was .69 or .7ish, the -300 could make it all the way to .73 and the -200 was somewhere in the middle.

VMo was 295 for the -100 and 305 for the -300.

[megan]

bean, these are the figures for the Electra C model, the A model differs only in having a Va three knots slower, from the FAA TCDS.



You'll find the speeds for the various BAE 146 models on the FAA TCDS link.

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...F?OpenDocument

[bean]

Thanks all. I posted this on the Vanguard facebool group as well and someone came up with the TCA Vmo graph. Follow the line must have been the answer
Different Vmos for different weights and interpolate in between
fl200 zero fuel weight 122500 lbs. Ias 282 mach.58

[DaveReidUK]

In case anyone else is tempted to look, the Canadian TCDS for the Vanguard simply says: "Airspeed Limits - See Airplane Flight Manual".

[common toad]

Jhieminga. Please don’t post pictures like that on a public forum; it will give the children (of the magenta line) nightmares and retired aviators nostalgia pains. Thank you.

[bean]

Originally Posted by Jhieminga

I'm pretty sure that there is no barberpole on the ASI in a Vanguard, but I cannot find the photo to confirm this right now.
This will do: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9124318
G-APEP has an interesting ASI with two pointers. The 'barberpole' on the altimeter is no doubt there to indicate no or unreliable altitude information.

Two pointer ASI seems to have been quite common in the sixties