Unidentified Crashed WW2 Aircraft
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Unidentified Crashed WW2 Aircraft
Any offers on what type of aircraft is depicted in this photo which is on offer on e-bay? The elongated cockpit canopy is odd, and the engines seem to be of radial design. The roundels could be any colour, while the soldiers are clearly not British. The e-bay caption simply mentions "a WW2 German victim". Pic might have been taken in the Balkans.
Potez 630 or 631? Wavy demarkation between upper and lower camouflage and very outboard roundel look distinctly French, to my eye... and there appears to be a third camouflage colour just to the left of the bush that's now a part of the left wing. 
On first glance I thought possibly ‘Mozzie’. I wouldn’t discount a staged shot? Roundels very outboard, holes very even, ailerons small and very outboard along with what appears ‘odd’ camouflage? Tailplane (Thick?? A wing leading edge?) if as it appears, should be central and horizontal, if that's correct it makes the fuselage roundel appear to be very 'low' on the body. I am pretty good at wwii aircraft recognition but only a very armchair historian. Interesting shot! And who ARE those masked men??
Last edited by V-Jet; 16th Oct 2021 at 11:45.
With a bit of digging I'm pretty confident it is French, the roundels and numbering is early war French. The type is most likely an Amiot 351, not well known at all. It has high set main wing and mid fuselage tail plane with what is likely twin tails, the Right side fin having broken off in the crash sequence. Most other french twins of the time have low set mains and tail planes sitting high over the rear fuselage, like the Potez 630/631.
I found this in reference to Amiot 351 number 64 serial I-134;
Would make sense then why it's crashed and accompanied by what looks like French troops, at least made it to home soil.
I found this in reference to Amiot 351 number 64 serial I-134;
Assigned to GB I / 21. Damaged by the Flak, he hit a hill after returning from a mission. Lieutenant TURREL (Chief of Flight) is killed, and Chief Warrant Officer SABOURAULT (pilot) is seriously injured.
Last edited by 43Inches; 16th Oct 2021 at 12:19.
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After magnifying the photo as much as possible, I'm pretty certain the soldiers are German- general shape of uniforms, belt buckles, caps, jackboots, eagle and swastika badge above right breast pocket on the soldier at left, also he is holding what could be a German helmet.
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Great responses. Looking at on-line photos of the Amiot 351, I think that is it. It has a distinctive 'shoulder' wing - and the roundels point in a French direction. Many thanks
After magnifying the photo as much as possible, I'm pretty certain the soldiers are German- general shape of uniforms, belt buckles, caps, jackboots, eagle and swastika badge above right breast pocket on the soldier at left, also he is holding what could be a German helmet.
I'm now almost certain this aircraft is what remains of Amiot 351 number 64 serial I-134. As far as I know only a few were lost to enemy action on mission, two at least being completely destroyed by impact. Having number '64' on the tail is the most prominent feature. And it fits exactly with how the A-351s were numbered.
The other I'm aware of a Amiot 354 no 29 sn I-099 was shot down and completely destroyed on impact. The French ace Lieutenant-Colonel Jean DAGNAUX died during the mission and from accounts was killed before the aircraft crashed, he was also know as 'the ace with the wooden leg'.
A piece from the Pilot of the flight;
GB II/34, May 17, 1940.
Lieutenant Frémond
The mission is a low altitude night armed reconnaissance flight. This kind of mission was called “bombardement par jalonnement” (marker bombing). The concept was taken over in mid-1942 by the “pathfinders” of the RAF.
The mission is a reconnaissance of the enemy advance, to seek and destroy its columns in the sector of Chimay and eventually to locate Flak positions. We take off from Nangis in the night of 17 May with the maximum fuel load and 1200kg of bombs. [...] We are soon in sight of fires on the front line. We head on the right to the town of Guise, and see it burning. I leave it on my left and try to spot enemy convoys on the banks of the Oise river. We are casually talking on the intercom. As requested by colonel Dagnaux [who took the dorsal gunner position], I am flying at 600m only, as long as the Flak does not react. In previous missions we could escape their projectors relatively easily, and we believe it will happen once more, thanks to our speed and manoeuvrability.
A battery of projectors lights up suddenly on our right. They catch us immediately, without searching for us. Strings of tracers meander towards us. I break left full engines, dive down in zigzags. In vain, we’re stuck in. It is for good this time, and everything happens very quickly. After the first burst, a voice in the intercom signals fire under the right wing. I see it spreading to the fuselage. I am now heading more or less to the south, but there is only a meagre hope to ever reach our lines. A second burst settles it and cripples us. A shell goes trough [radio-gunner] Regnault’station, without exploding. I ask if he’s injured, hear no answer. I repeat the bail-out order several times and receive no answer. To make it easier, I cut the throttle and pitch up to slow down the aircraft. The second burst blasted the relay fuel tank in my back and hits are multiplying.
The whole centre fuselage is now a torrent of flames. They get in through the rear dorsal position, going around colonel Dagnaux’s neck and shoulders. He lies motionless in his seat facing the rear. Adjudant Lavolley [bombardier] seems mortally hit as well. He collapsed on the floor of the nose station. The chandelle ends, I can feel the aircraft irresistibly attracted backwards in a vertical stall. I resolve myself to open the canopy and try to bail out.
I start to extract myself; the relative wind of the dive reaps me off. I wonder for a second if I will pass above or below the tail, which was cutting through the trail of flames. I never knew but did not hit it. I immediately pull the release handle since the ground cannot be far. I feel the shock of the opening parachute. The fiery explosion of the aircraft on the ground fills the sky with flames. I come close to a gutter and land in a small garden, my parachute caught in telephone lines. I hear outcries in the night, words in German. Soldiers come to me from a convoy stopped all lights out on the road. They rush in, pull on the parachute to rise me up before I could detach the harness. They take me for an Englishman, think I was wounded. I tell them wrong. My first question is to ask if they saw another parachute before mine. Their contradictory answers give me as much hope as torment.
[Driven to the crash site] I am standing alone at the edge of the smoking crater where my comrades disintegrated, crying silently. [...] I cannot forget the sight of the only remain of the aircraft: the cross made by two spars of the stabiliser and the fin, naked, lying across the crater, like a symbol of eternity. Now I know no human remains shall ever be found. A few days later however, I will meet with sergent-chef Regnault, safe and sound in a group of prisoners. On the first evacuation order he had managed to bail out through the flames and the belly hatch. [...] He had hidden for two days before being captured.
This was the last mission of lieutenant-colonel Dagnaux, the “wooden-leg ace”, a famous aviator who had lost a leg in the skies of Verdun during the Great War. He can be considered as the real initiator of Pathfinder tactics.
Lieutenant Frémond
The mission is a low altitude night armed reconnaissance flight. This kind of mission was called “bombardement par jalonnement” (marker bombing). The concept was taken over in mid-1942 by the “pathfinders” of the RAF.
The mission is a reconnaissance of the enemy advance, to seek and destroy its columns in the sector of Chimay and eventually to locate Flak positions. We take off from Nangis in the night of 17 May with the maximum fuel load and 1200kg of bombs. [...] We are soon in sight of fires on the front line. We head on the right to the town of Guise, and see it burning. I leave it on my left and try to spot enemy convoys on the banks of the Oise river. We are casually talking on the intercom. As requested by colonel Dagnaux [who took the dorsal gunner position], I am flying at 600m only, as long as the Flak does not react. In previous missions we could escape their projectors relatively easily, and we believe it will happen once more, thanks to our speed and manoeuvrability.
A battery of projectors lights up suddenly on our right. They catch us immediately, without searching for us. Strings of tracers meander towards us. I break left full engines, dive down in zigzags. In vain, we’re stuck in. It is for good this time, and everything happens very quickly. After the first burst, a voice in the intercom signals fire under the right wing. I see it spreading to the fuselage. I am now heading more or less to the south, but there is only a meagre hope to ever reach our lines. A second burst settles it and cripples us. A shell goes trough [radio-gunner] Regnault’station, without exploding. I ask if he’s injured, hear no answer. I repeat the bail-out order several times and receive no answer. To make it easier, I cut the throttle and pitch up to slow down the aircraft. The second burst blasted the relay fuel tank in my back and hits are multiplying.
The whole centre fuselage is now a torrent of flames. They get in through the rear dorsal position, going around colonel Dagnaux’s neck and shoulders. He lies motionless in his seat facing the rear. Adjudant Lavolley [bombardier] seems mortally hit as well. He collapsed on the floor of the nose station. The chandelle ends, I can feel the aircraft irresistibly attracted backwards in a vertical stall. I resolve myself to open the canopy and try to bail out.
I start to extract myself; the relative wind of the dive reaps me off. I wonder for a second if I will pass above or below the tail, which was cutting through the trail of flames. I never knew but did not hit it. I immediately pull the release handle since the ground cannot be far. I feel the shock of the opening parachute. The fiery explosion of the aircraft on the ground fills the sky with flames. I come close to a gutter and land in a small garden, my parachute caught in telephone lines. I hear outcries in the night, words in German. Soldiers come to me from a convoy stopped all lights out on the road. They rush in, pull on the parachute to rise me up before I could detach the harness. They take me for an Englishman, think I was wounded. I tell them wrong. My first question is to ask if they saw another parachute before mine. Their contradictory answers give me as much hope as torment.
[Driven to the crash site] I am standing alone at the edge of the smoking crater where my comrades disintegrated, crying silently. [...] I cannot forget the sight of the only remain of the aircraft: the cross made by two spars of the stabiliser and the fin, naked, lying across the crater, like a symbol of eternity. Now I know no human remains shall ever be found. A few days later however, I will meet with sergent-chef Regnault, safe and sound in a group of prisoners. On the first evacuation order he had managed to bail out through the flames and the belly hatch. [...] He had hidden for two days before being captured.
This was the last mission of lieutenant-colonel Dagnaux, the “wooden-leg ace”, a famous aviator who had lost a leg in the skies of Verdun during the Great War. He can be considered as the real initiator of Pathfinder tactics.
Last edited by 43Inches; 16th Oct 2021 at 23:21.
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seeing the holes in the roundel I wonder if it was used for target practise after the incident? Seems a strange place to concentrate aim if you wanted damage to vital components in order to down the aircraft.
I think AAA would be able to aim at an aircraft but not at a specific part of an aircraft and I wouldn't discount troops taking pot shots for fun at the crashed aircraft.
