RAF VC-10 in-flight reverse thrust use.
Absolutely, those spoilers seemed more like airbrakes - producing an impressive rate of descent. BOAC VC-10s seemed to use spoilers a lot when descending to some Middle Eastern & East African airports, possibly because of airspace restrictions due to unrest and recent conflicts. (This was in the late Sixties and early Seventies) As you say, quite a lot of vibration and noise associated. The only aircraft in which I flew which was allowed to select reverse thrust while airborne was the DH/HS Trident - Mk1 I think. Quite a different and distinctive noise, from the engines.
Coming in to shortish runways - like Aberdeen's Dyce - you'd sometimes hear reverse thrust being selected on short finals, That generally meant no go around option. I believe one Trident did slightly over-run onto the grass at Dyce as a result.
An RAF VC10 was in a descent once and the crew decided to reduce the descent rate by applying thrust....which made things worse. Then an orange reverser unlocked light came on!
It seems that a failed linkage of some sort had caused a reverser to deploy and the only solution was to shut down the offending engine.
Taxying out once I did the normal reverser check (correctly, not that stupid show off way..) and it didn't feel right. So I canned the trip and had it investigated. I went up on the safety raiser with one of the sooties who showed that the linkage had indeed come apart and would not have worked correctly.
It seems that a failed linkage of some sort had caused a reverser to deploy and the only solution was to shut down the offending engine.
Taxying out once I did the normal reverser check (correctly, not that stupid show off way..) and it didn't feel right. So I canned the trip and had it investigated. I went up on the safety raiser with one of the sooties who showed that the linkage had indeed come apart and would not have worked correctly.
Last edited by BEagle; 20th May 2021 at 22:49.
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I think it was the Lear 45 that wasn't allowed on the UK register for a while because if one deployed on that you had a second before it had itself inverted.
Edit, found it
Uncommanded thrust reverser deployment in flight
Edit, found it
We used to train this in the sim on the Lear 45. The thrust lever automatically snapped to idle if the reverser deployed and we were trained immediately to shut the engine down.
The aircraft was marginally controllable and between stick shaker and V2 until you shut it down. You could just about attain a positive rate. One wily TRE also trained knowing the location of and instinctively pulling the deploy CB (4th back on the bottom row since you ask
) as a backup.
It was a good sim exercise, but it was seriously demanding even if you were in "sim" mode, and over beers we wondered whether it would be survivable if it happened for real.
The aircraft was marginally controllable and between stick shaker and V2 until you shut it down. You could just about attain a positive rate. One wily TRE also trained knowing the location of and instinctively pulling the deploy CB (4th back on the bottom row since you ask
) as a backup.It was a good sim exercise, but it was seriously demanding even if you were in "sim" mode, and over beers we wondered whether it would be survivable if it happened for real.
Bit of thread drift as not VC10 . Tridents 1/2/1e/3s , all could use reverse in the air . Memory say max 10,000 HP rpm on the outers , ie eng 1 and 3 . We used it regularly , though rev and or speedbrake in normal use was judged to be a poorly planned/executed approach .
Though if Wx , ATC , or fun dictated was a normal op. Have forgotten minimum ht. of cancelling rev.
Positioning an empty a/c with no.2 at idle , VMO of 365 , speedbrake [ airbrake ] out and 10,000 rev on outers . Descent rates of in excess of 17000 fpm were seen.
For precision landings , or short runways [ old EDI or ABZ , specially if ILS flown {only 1 ILS then } in a max tailwind ] , or fun [ practice really ] again.... Call from Handling Pilot to Non Handling Pilot [ throttle handler , as HP could not comfortably reach throttles and stick ] was '' Power Off , 10,000 Reverse '' , if judged correctly it cushioned the touchdown nicely , got retardation in early before brakes and airbrake were used .
Don't remember any restriction on a G/A from that position , and like an Autoland G/A , the runway may be touched in it's execution .
Only later on Boeings when reverse in , then No G/A to be carried out .
Yes the cabbage fields at ABZ and EDI were regularly visited , but not by those who pulled emergency reverse [ 12000 HP RPM ] early , and kept it in to a stop .
rgds condor.
Though if Wx , ATC , or fun dictated was a normal op. Have forgotten minimum ht. of cancelling rev.
Positioning an empty a/c with no.2 at idle , VMO of 365 , speedbrake [ airbrake ] out and 10,000 rev on outers . Descent rates of in excess of 17000 fpm were seen.
For precision landings , or short runways [ old EDI or ABZ , specially if ILS flown {only 1 ILS then } in a max tailwind ] , or fun [ practice really ] again.... Call from Handling Pilot to Non Handling Pilot [ throttle handler , as HP could not comfortably reach throttles and stick ] was '' Power Off , 10,000 Reverse '' , if judged correctly it cushioned the touchdown nicely , got retardation in early before brakes and airbrake were used .
Don't remember any restriction on a G/A from that position , and like an Autoland G/A , the runway may be touched in it's execution .
Only later on Boeings when reverse in , then No G/A to be carried out .
Yes the cabbage fields at ABZ and EDI were regularly visited , but not by those who pulled emergency reverse [ 12000 HP RPM ] early , and kept it in to a stop .
rgds condor.
Other than the well-publicised (aquaplaning) T3 overrun at ABZ in 1978, I don't recall any runway excursions by Tridents at either of those airports.
Certainly there was one at EDI in my time b4 the runway was extended. Late mate finished with the nose over the sea wall in Gib with emergency reverse still on. Skipper reached over and gently eased his hand and the levers forward « it’s all right Les, we’ve stopped ».
Last edited by blind pew; 31st May 2021 at 20:29.
There was an old TV cops series, (Softly, Softly, maybe), that had a clip in the opening credits of a Trident landing at GIB and you could see the reverse thrust smoke from the cascades before touchdown.
Dave R , they were mostly least said soonest mended , and EDI woulld have been the old 13/31.
B P , if that was the late great Les B , hope he had his 'hairy hand' on those reversers . .
Dixi , would always have been reverse in the flare at GIB .
rgds dave f.
B P , if that was the late great Les B , hope he had his 'hairy hand' on those reversers . .
Dixi , would always have been reverse in the flare at GIB .
rgds dave f.
ABZ Rwy 17 was the only one with an ILS . So with the 'Haar' in , was the only one with an high probability of landing of the available instrument approach .... Thus often a tailwind , and within limits as 'reported' by ATC [ thanks guys for creatability ] ....Thus emergency reverse to a stop .
EDI may have been the same , but was a T3 route thus as a T1/2 boy didn't see it until Shuttle started with the opening of RWY 25/07 .
rgds condor .
EDI may have been the same , but was a T3 route thus as a T1/2 boy didn't see it until Shuttle started with the opening of RWY 25/07 .
rgds condor .
Flew RAF VC10s and also the Oman RF one too, totaling about 3,000 hrs on the type and NEVER ever used reverse thrust in the air. If speed were reduced below the gear limit, (my fading memory recalls this being 254 kts) one could always lower the gear and with flap the aircraft would go down like a lift.
Even when the speedbrakes (spoilers) were deployed normally there was a degree of airframe vibration which occurred and I would suspect that accounted for the vibration referred to by the instigator of this thread. Until about the mid 1980s it was common for the operating pilot doing a pa to the pax at 'top of drop' and mention that if a quickish descent were required because they had been held high by ATC, then the speedbrakes would be deployed and that they would experience this vibration which was completely normal and nothing to worry about. In time this mention on the pa was skipped as many of the pax were 'frequent flyers' and knew about it
Even when the speedbrakes (spoilers) were deployed normally there was a degree of airframe vibration which occurred and I would suspect that accounted for the vibration referred to by the instigator of this thread. Until about the mid 1980s it was common for the operating pilot doing a pa to the pax at 'top of drop' and mention that if a quickish descent were required because they had been held high by ATC, then the speedbrakes would be deployed and that they would experience this vibration which was completely normal and nothing to worry about. In time this mention on the pa was skipped as many of the pax were 'frequent flyers' and knew about it
Had to reverse out of Civil Airport gates in the United States when on RAF Britannias two times for the lack of a correct tow bar. Feet off brakes!!!