TSR-2 (Merged a few times)

[Tim McLelland]

er... what?

[tsrjoe]

re. ...

...having researched the ill fated TSR.2 for over 20 years now, i found that my preconcieved ideas and ALL previous pieces written on the aircraft unfortunately have had some bias and disinformation woven into them.

the story isnt simple at all and is certainly one that deserves in depth study looking at each of the 'problem' areas, eg, horrendous cost overuns, the unsuitability of the airframe, political pressures both internal and from the US. etc. etc.

i have found over the years that much of the material relating to the project has been scattered, NWHG. has a good photo archive and some brochure material, the PRO/TNA. at Kew quite a lot of related paperwork, other items being distributed elsewhere (i know of a further large photo archive and even microfiche copies of a number of the type drawings not previously accessed)

i hope at some point in the future to sort out my researches on the aircraft and finally publish them, the TSR.2 Aerofax was unfortunately caught up in some other stuff happening at the time, and even tho i had the manuscript ready i couldnt devote the time the project deserved to bring it to completion

cheers, Joe Cherrie

[Blacksheep]

TSR2 was a victim of cost, pure and simple.

...and of course, as far as Tactical Strike and Reconnaisance goes, it wasn't a patch on the Buccaneer.

[Rainboe]

The hint that the Gannex wearing pipe smoker was working for the Red side on page 1 has, I very much believe, more than a ring of truth in it. The Austin Healey also- their socialist convictions were extremely solid (and sordid). Ones' parental relation worked in the MOD when the bushy eye-browed one was actually Minister OD. All possible secrets were allegedly kept from him. The sudden resignation of Harold was always suspicious, even moreso as the years progressed. I believe it was a disgraceful and deadly time in British politics. It all followed Gaitskill passing (very) suddenly from the scene. The socialist trio set about destroying British defence capability and scientific advance, very effectively in 1964 from the moment they took over. Tempting to look for scientific answers to something that was uncomfortably (and disastrously) political.

[pulse1]

TSR2 was scrapped because it was incapable of flying supersonic at low level to Moscow and back. It simply could not carry enough fuel. Neither could the F111 which was also cancelled for the RAF. It could only be done subsonically and we already had the best airframe for that, the Buccaneer.

[ionagh]

I'm not sure that the return leg of any nuclear sortie is a valid issue. Where would they recover to? The home bases would have been first/second strike targets. I cant think of any V force aircraft that had return capability for all of the targets they were covering.

If there were recovery bases, then I'm fairly sure they weren't in the UK.

I understood that the design payload for TSR2 was no longer available (read acceptable under international agreement etc) and the airframe was too role specific to use elsewhere.

TSR2 history is emotive and rarely objective. Its difficult to establish exactly what the truth was and I'm not convinced that we ever will know.

But, I will never vote Labour

[Tim McLelland]

Whilst I agree that the story of the TSR2 is complex and often surrounded by secrecy, rumour and gossip, the project was a victim of cost, simple as that. The conspiracy stories are very entertaining but the more you look into them, the less evidence there is to support them. It seems pretty clear that if the project had been managed properly, then it would have survived.

Joe, I think you know that I was tasked with writing the book which was intended to replace your Aerofax book, but even that has now been abandoned. Seems that the appetite to pursue the subject has waned somewhat so the subject's dead and buried for the time being, sadly. Hope you manage to resurrect the idea eventually though!

[tornadoken]

rainboe: The socialist trio set about destroying British defence capability. Gaitskell as 1951 Chancellor, funded Korean War Defence budget by putting charges on the hitherto wholly free NHS, thus provoking 3 resignations from Attlee's Govt., contributing to him losing the 1951 Election. Might your "trio" have been "Agent-of-Influence" Wilson, "red" Healey, "KGB-minded" Callaghan? If I may repeat from Key Publishing's TSR.2 Memories Project thread: KGB work through its Agent-of-Influence: No shred of evidence, though through Peter Wright's charade The Party Opposite would have made hay with a hint of a shred. Corrigan/Donkeys repeated it and extended the calumny to Callaghan. CDSs served happily, as these PMs deployed Polaris, WE177B, funded Chevaline and initiated Trident. I have seen/can't now find a quote by Sir A.Douglas-Home, Wilson's defeated opponent, 1964, in the sense: "I have always found Wilson to be sound on Defence fundamentals". KGB? Tripe.

Here's another politician's comment on Wilson's "destruction" of UK defence:
TSR.2 “an albatross round our necks (Healey) took the decision which would have had to be taken by (PT.His MoD was) writing (TSR.2) would have (to go) it was just that (Labour) took the opprobrium”. That was Healey's Tory predecessor, Peter Thorneycroft (B.Jackson/E.Bramall,Chiefs,Brassey’s,92,P361).

[Rainboe]

Number 3 was Brown. Was never sure about Callaghan- I believe his working class loyalty credentials were sound and he would not have been involved. I remember well the upset the TSR2 business caused. It would have had incredible performance and as a medium/long range bomber would have had little trouble penetrating the opposition. Instead we got involved in the F111 fracas despite warnings not to go there. I am surprised Polaris survived the various governments, but I have to say that I always found Wilson dodgy and his whole retirement saga very suspicious. It's coming out that several Labour MPs were very likely working for the opposition, I have little doubt that several Labour cabinet members were doing so. There was a distinctly weird and dodgy respect for the ideals of Soviet communism in the 50s and 60s- it wasn't just the Cambridge University 'mafia' who were up to that nonsense. We needed some damn good executions for treason to put the wind up the rest. Why we aren't doing that now to terrorists is beyond me- they want to martyr themselves- we'd just be helping them on their desired path. Instead they are using our hospitality to preach their hate against us. I find it fantastic that Blunt and Philby and others found their loyalty to Socialism outweighed their loyalty to the flag. I have no illusions that many MPs were not similarly inclined, even cabinet ministers. Some may have been coerced, but it must have been so easy to honeytrap them.

BTW, Gaitskill's departure may have been natural, but there was talk at one time that he could have been 'removed' to make way for someone. There is just an awful lot of smoke coming from the government- it seems too much smoke without any fire not to be ignored.

[Brewster Buffalo]

As we know having cancelled the TSR2 the government then ordered the F-111K at a fixed price of Ł2.1m per unit for 50 aircraft in 1967.

Then in 1968 the government cancelled it incurring large penalty costs of Ł60m equivalent to nearly 30 F-111s.

So a vast amount of money was spent on these aircraft with nothing to show for it.

The F-111 did have its problems but either the government should never have ordered it or carried on with the deal.

[tornadoken]

George Brown, First Secretary of State, was MP for Derby(Belper), where he may have tipped Jenkins/Healey towards Medway for HS681, not Pegasus. His main legacy is as butt of Private Eye's immortal "tired and emotional". Healey would have failed Positive Vetting for the job of MoD Messenger, having been a student Communist. But in 1936 the choice appeared to lie between that and fascism. Might you concede some regard for Major Healey,MC,Anzio Military Landing Officer?

Attlee tasked Wilson, Pres. of the Board of Trade, with developing $-sparse Trade with USSR: this the jaw, jaw, not war, war approach that Churchill, now Obama endorse(d). In Opposition he earned as Consultant on E.European Trade, such as to Gannex. As PM his Cabinet included CND stalwarts, inc. Mrs.B.Castle, F.Cousins, A.Greenwood (more as MPs, inc M.Foot): you and I might concur they were deluded, exploited by folk with quite a different agenda. Wilson/Healey did Polaris &tc. nonetheless. R.Crossman, George Wigg were to the fore in questioning East of Suez. Times then were similar to now: broke, besieged currency. Outgoing Tory Chancellor R.Maudling (he that chopped V.1000) handed over his desk to Callaghan with: “Sorry to leave such a mess, old c@ck” A.Marr,A History of Modern Britain,Mac,07,P241.

For me, Wilson's inherited programme, of presence in Indian O., procurement of TSR.2/HS681/P.1154 would have put E.Heath, 1970 in a far worse state than Wilson's bequest of stronger NATO/CENTO presence, F-4K/M, Harrier GR.1, Jaguar onway, Buccaneer S.2B(RAF) lead-in for (to be) Tornado; WE.177-family of efficient nukes, Polaris retained, funded and from 15/6/1968, deployed (though 4, not the Tories' planned 5).

Tories chopped the supersonic bomber, various ASM follows-on to Blue Steel, the Blue Streak IRBM, and solo-UK nukes beyond very resticted deployment of Yellow Sun Mk.1. Myopic, moi? toi?

[PPRuNe Pop]

I am not proposing to burst your bubble but this subject has been thrashed to death so many times it is no longer of real interest.

Time after time someone comes up with more information that is just a regurgitation of past stuff or a new way of saying the same thing.

It has no where to go and nothing new can now be added.

[Tim McLelland]

I agree entirely. It's easy to repeat the age-old conspiracy theories and to dwell on what might have been but if one sifts-out all the gossip, misinformation, rumours and sentiment, there's nothing to support any conlusion other than that the project was mis-managed (at a company and Governmental level) and was hideously expensive. Okay, it would have been a bargain by modern standards (as would have been the F-111 to be fair) but the decision-makers didn't have the luxury of a crystal ball.

Ultimately, it's simply a rather sad story of a project which had great potential but which came along at the wrong time. Same applies to other projects which suffered similar fates. The infamous 1957 Defence Review is another classic tale of how commentators and pundits lazily heap blame on Duncan Sandys for destroying so many promising projects but again, it's unfair to assume that he could have done anything differently. Clearly, he was given a great deal of inaccurate (or at least unfounded) information on which to make his decisions but no matter how good some of the abandoned projects might have been, the simple truth is that Britain didn't have the resources to pay for them.

Fundamentally, the TSR2 story (like many other similar projects) is inevitably re-told as an act of political vandalism. But this is simply lazy journalism. Superficially, this notion might seem plausible (and of course it makes good reading) but in reality the inescapable fact is that post-war Britain was proverbially punching above her weight, developing and supporting ambitious projects which simply couldn't be afforded.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

TSR-2 Units

Sorry if I've missed it somewhere here or elsewhere, but which squadrons were designated to receive TSR-2, if in fact any were in fact designated?
Roland Wong has done a print of one in 617 colours is this a clue?
Thanks in anticipation,
Be lucky
David
P.S. To Mods I have tried the search facility and all TSR-2 threads except the pprune print one are closed.

[Dan Winterland]

I vaguley remember a contemporary publicity painting with them in 41 Sqn colours. But it doesn't mean 41 were due to get them. I suspect they hadn't thought that far.

[Gainesy]

I reckon 617 is a safe bet, along with some of the low-number traditional bomber squadrons such as 7 , 9, 10, 12 etc.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Try a search on TSR2 +squadrons on google and you find some info.

[kiwibrit]

with some of the low-number traditional bomber squadrons such as 7 , 9, 10, 12 etc.

I would prefer " squadrons such as 7 , IX, 10, 12 etc."

[Jig Peter]

TSR2 name ???

I've always wondered what the TSR2 would have been named ... if the RAAF had taken it up, as they did the Canberra, diplomatically calling it "Sydney", or even "Perth" would surely have led to hilarity, (I mean, who'd have got to love a craft called "Sid" or "Perce", and Their Airships do NOT like "lower deck"-type jests and japes) while "Darwin" would have been presumptuous.
Just a thought, for the time before the super-beast was allotted to squadrons ...

[D120A]

I have always thought that they would have left it as TSR2.

There were so many chaps around, singing "Five foot two, eyes of blue, I wanna fly a TSR2..." that it would have been cruel to have changed it...