BAE / AVRO 146

[Allan Lupton]

Thanks for putting the record straight WHBM. We thought of it as a 748 replacement.
I don't remember considering using the M45H but I do remember, after the 146 had several years in service, someone in authority asking us to consider using two R-R Tays. We said, more or less "if that's what you want you can't start from here" and referred them to (by then) our Weybridge office where they had investigated a Tay-powered 1-11.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by Allan Lupton

someone in authority asking us to consider using two R-R Tays. We said, more or less "if that's what you want you can't start from here" and referred them to (by then) our Weybridge office where they had investigated a Tay-powered 1-11.

Isn't that called the Fokker F100 ?

[Herod]

Isn't that called the Fokker F100 ?

And a very fine aircraft.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by WHBM

Isn't that called the Fokker F100 ?

Not necessarily.

Farnborough Show 1990:



Not exactly the most successful of programmes.

Dee Howard and the Tay 1-11

[Jhieminga]

Originally Posted by TCU

A question that has recently bugged me as a result of one of those interweb trails that take you from one place to somewhere you did not expect.....why did the HS(BAe)146 not use the Rolls Royce/SNECMA M45H engines used on the VFW614?

Next to the BPR/noise issue mentioned above, have a look at the timeline. The VFW614 first flew in 1971, the BAe146 in 1981. Ten years later they were looking for a different generation of engine. Another one is that the M45H engine was developed for a very specific short stage length. The BAe146 was aimed at a more flexible market.

[safetypee]

There were thoughts

and some others

[washoutt]

What is BPR, please?

[SWBKCB]

Originally Posted by washoutt

What is BPR, please?

The bypass ratio (BPR) of a turbofan engine is the ratio between the mass flow rate of the bypass stream to the mass flow rate entering the core.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_ratio

[TCU]

Originally Posted by Jhieminga

The VFW614 first flew in 1971, the BAe146 in 1981.

I get the eventual launch date issue, but the HS146 was "launched" in 1973, so the RR engine must have surely been in the mixing pot as a developable option? Most "launch" engines eventually get improved (including BRP)....one only has to look at the M45H's bigger cousin the RB211

Those images above are superb, although I have to say, the 146 looks much better, more purposeful, with 4 pods rather than 2.

Have a soft spot for the 146 having enjoyed many flights on Meridiana's 146's into and out of FLR

[Jhieminga]

How does this one fit in the BAe146 history?

[TCU]

BAe146 first flight cover

[treadigraph]

The QSTOL looks as though it owed more than a little to the 1-11!

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by TCU

BAe146 first flight cover

Must've been about 1987/8 that Talkdownman and I plus a couple of others flew up to Hatfield to visit the '146 production line.

[treadigraph]

I did the 146 production several times during open days which I think usually coincided with the PFA Fly In at Cranfield, 1983 and 1984 certainly and probably on several later occasions. Recall a Guppy doing a low pass (and a Fred Olsen Electra coincidentally flying over out of Heathrow!) as well plus the DH-88 displaying as it was based there - it eventually got slightly bent when it ground-looped at one of these events, cue another rebuild!

Somewhat ashamed that my colleagues were involved in designing the de Havilland Campus which consumed the hallowed site a couple of decades ago, but such is the price of progress...

[safetypee]

How does this one fit in the BAe146 history?
The QSTOL looks as though it owed more than a little to the 1-11!

Could be; several ideas from the BAC and HSA design studies with government research funding.




Hatfield open day 1980

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3pzfwx0oo18vyip/Hatfield open day 1980.pdf?dl=0

[rog747]

Loved flying on the 146 - Dan Air used it on IT charters at night IBZ and PMI and Manx on Ski flights.
Capital had a couple.
Palmair had a nice example flying from BOH SOU EXT and JER to the Med.
Aegean in the Greek Islands.

Brymon were shown the demo 146 (BAF colours) but went with the Dash 7.

Looking forward to possibly flying one again from Punta Arenas to King George Island to join an Antarctica Grand Circle expedition cruise to go below 66 degrees South - saves throwing up for 3 days in the Drake Passage.
Aerovias DAP have about 6 146's and a few in store.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by treadigraph

Somewhat ashamed that my colleagues were involved in designing the de Havilland Campus which consumed the hallowed site a couple of decades ago, but such is the price of progress...

This was at that time commonly overflown at quite low altitude by inbound traffic from Scotland/Ireland to London City, Scot Airways Dorniers etc, from which I got good views over time of the demolition, raw earth, and then rebuilding. There wasn't a radio point there or anything, but it was just on a line heading to transit overhead Lambourne VOR. Routing has changed now to a much wider loop, out beyond Southend, and often (bizarrely, coming from such a direction) with a view of the French coast.

[possel]

Originally Posted by TCU

I get the eventual launch date issue, but the HS146 was "launched" in 1973, so the RR engine must have surely been in the mixing pot as a developable option? Most "launch" engines eventually get improved (including BRP).

To be precise, the 146 was in design (with the ALF502) in 1973 when I arrived at Hatfield as a brand new graduate, and then it was "put on ice" at about the end of 1974 as feedback from airlines indicated that it was "ahead of its time" (and I suspect the 1973 oil crisis had something to do with it). I left HSA in 1975 and was pleasantly surprised to see a 146 flying in 1984 for Dan Air in (sort of) RAF colours (who had trialled two).

To me the surprising thing was that they persevered with the ALF502 when they resurrected it. The delay could have been used to that end?

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by treadigraph

The QSTOL looks as though it owed more than a little to the 1-11!

The Emb C390 is also pretty close, and it's in production.

[old,not bold]

In 1981 I was dispatched to Hatfield to do a report evaluating the BAe146 for European/North African operations, mainly ACMI, using De Havilland's predicted performance figures.

I made a lot of the claim, as did BAe, that a complete spare engine could be carried in the hold, enabling fast return to service if a change were needed away from base (SEN).

The Chairman read the report, looked at me and in his inimitable fashion said "You stupid prat, why the f**k do you think it's important to carry a spare?" I muttered about lower costs of recovery, blah, blah.

"It's because those f*****g Lycoming engines are designed for helicopters and are f*****g unreliable".

That was the last we heard of the BAe 146.