Lancaster/Other Bomber Crews Age

[spekesoftly]

My late mother's first husband was 23 years old when his Lancaster Mk II (LL623) failed to return from a raid to Berlin. Thus my mother was married, pregnant and widowed, before reaching the age of 19.

[Innominate]

There were lots and lots of young men flying in Lancasters, but the oldest crew members (not very many) were usually gunners (and in their 40's).

Many of the flight engineers were former Halton "Brats" chosen for their engineering knowledge, and likely to be above the average age. Likewise some of the wireless operators would have had prior experience in a ground wireless trade.

Would it not have been possible for the whole or part "greenhouse" on top to be made jettisonable ?

Still not easy to climb out that way (stand on the nav's table?) and then you'd need to avoid the inner propellers, the wing and the tailplane. Having climbed over the main spar with the aircraft on the ground, in a lit hangar and wearing a suit (me, not the aircraft!) I wouldn't want to do it wearing flying kit, with the aircraft pitching and rolling, at night. That said, most of the crew (pilot, engineer, navigator, bomb aimer and wireless operator) were forward of the spar, so they'd go for the nose hatch.

[rolling20]

Originally Posted by Danny42C

Re: Lancasters: would it not have been possible for the whole or part "greenhouse" on top to be made jettisonable ? Never had anything to do with them myself, but I understand the front spar was a major obstacle when you needed to get out fast in full flying kit.

Any "techies" like to come in on this ?

With 4 Merlins turning either side and possibly on fire, along with a wing on fire as well, one would have thought the last place you would want to parachute from was the cockpit area?

[rolling20]

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips

As an aside, how long would it take for a crew to complete the full 30 ops, or would this be dependent on type, Sqdn, and time of year ?..or all three.

A lot depended on luck, no early returns, the weather and the leave roster.I would say mid 43, around 5-6 months was about right. That may have decreased slightly as the war went in their favour after DDay.

[rolling20]

Originally Posted by Treble one

There were lots and lots of young men flying in Lancasters, but the oldest crew members (not very many) were usually gunners (and in their 40's).

I think that's a bit of a generalisation. Whilst there were one or two famous older gunners and indeed pilots,who were usually permanent commissioned people, it was very rare to find a gunner who wasn't in their 20s.

[WHBM]

Mr WHBM Snr, b.1910, was Nav (having been in banking) on Halifaxes 1942-3, so 32-33. Then went to the same position on Dakotas in Burma for the rest of it. He said by 1943 they had one pre-war "regular" left on the base.

[Krystal n chips]

Originally Posted by rolling20

A lot depended on luck, no early returns, the weather and the leave roster.I would say mid 43, around 5-6 months was about right. That may have decreased slightly as the war went in their favour after DDay.

Thank you for that reply. I've always wondered given the number of variables involved.

" Many of the flight engineers were former Halton "Brats" chosen for their engineering knowledge, and likely to be above the average age. Likewise some of the wireless operators would have had prior experience in a ground wireless trade."

I once met a former Whitely pilot who was more than a little scathing about the above becoming aircrew, not because he was antagonistic towards engineers, but , because in his opinion, there was a desperate need for well trained / experienced engineers and transferring to aircrew reduced their numbers.

[longer ron]

Not Lancaster but the youngest RAF pilot was Tom Dobney.
Lied about his age
Joined RAF aged 14yrs 3months
awarded wings 15yrs 5months
Flew (I believe) 20 ish operations on AW Whitley bombers before being grounded (shopped by his father).
Later rejoined the RAF and became a Kings Flight Captain (later Air Traffic ?)

[longer ron]

The oldest Lanc Pilot I am aware of was Wg Cdr Vashon James 'Pop' Wheeler D.F.C. and Bar, M.C. and Bar, Order of St Stanislaus (Russia) RAF, CO of 207 Sqn. Killed in a Lancaster near Frankfurt on 23rd March 1944. Age 46.
He was mentioned in Peter Townsends 'Duel of Eagles' autobio,I think when they first met they were calling each other 'sir' , P T was at least a sqdn ldr by then but was confused by 'pops' grey hair,pop was a pilot officer(or maybe F/O) in those days.
Sad he didnt make it.

Pop was a rifle brigade officer in WW1(underage !) ,learned to fly between the wars,volunteered for RAF(lied about his age again!!) and was a night fighter pilot on Hurris,Havocs,Beaus and Mossies.After being grounded by Fighter Command he volunteered for Bombers but was unlucky and his Lanc was hit by flak within a few weeks of being made OC 207 sqdn.
This link may or may not work - where there is a small bio.


About Vashon Films

[longer ron]

The oldest aircrew member I am aware of (Coastal Command) was - Wing Commander Lionel Frederick William Cohen, DSO, MC (World War I), DFC (World War II) was known as 'Sos' or sausage to all who knew him, and Evergreen to all his RAF comrades.He led a fascinating life -
This gallant gentleman served in four wars, was Army and also an observer in ww1(DSO, MC).Whilst officially a liason officer with Coastal in ww2 he volunteered to fly as a gunner and was awarded DFC aged 69 after completing (70 ?) ops.
Oldest aircrew and oldest flying medal winner ??

hopefully the link below to a bio of Sos will work.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...r-lionel-cohen

[Simtech]

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips

As an aside, how long would it take for a crew to complete the full 30 ops, or would this be dependent on type, Sqdn, and time of year ?..or all three.

My late uncle was a bomb aimer with IX(B) Squadron for his first tour. His first trip was to Dusseldorf on the night of 3/4 November 1943; trip no.30 was to Aachen on 11/12 April 1944. Of his 30 trips, 12 were to Berlin.

[LowNSlow]

My dad was a Flight Engineer on Halifax IIIs. He joined the RAF as ground crew aged 20 in 1939. After serving in the UK during the Battle of Britain he was posted to a training squadron in Canada in 1941 where he eventually became restless and volunteered for aircrew in late 1943 and got through selection despite having poor eyesight! He joined his squadron in June 44 just post D-Day and flew his last and 36th operation in March 45. His Pilot was ex-Battle of Britain Fighter Command and was aged 27 but in my mind the absolute winner in the bravery stakes was their Rear Gunner who celebrated his 48th birthday in 1944. Regarding how long a tour of operations took I met another Flight Engineer at one of dad’s reunions who said he didn’t know anybody there as he had done his 30 ops in 6 weeks flat before being sent to India as an engineering officer and had never flown again. So anything from 10 months to 6 weeks!

[rolling20]

Originally Posted by LowNSlow

My dad was a Flight Engineer on Halifax IIIs. He joined the RAF as ground crew aged 20 in 1939. After serving in the UK during the Battle of Britain he was posted to a training squadron in Canada in 1941 where he eventually became restless and volunteered for aircrew in late 1943 and got through selection despite having poor eyesight! He joined his squadron in June 44 just post D-Day and flew his last and 36th operation in March 45. His Pilot was ex-Battle of Britain Fighter Command and was aged 27 but in my mind the absolute winner in the bravery stakes was their Rear Gunner who celebrated his 48th birthday in 1944. Regarding how long a tour of operations took I met another Flight Engineer at one of dad’s reunions who said he didn’t know anybody there as he had done his 30 ops in 6 weeks flat before being sent to India as an engineering officer and had never flown again. So anything from 10 months to 6 weeks!

Like I said, the length of a tour depended on certain variables. I personally would doubt a 30 op tour in 6 weeks however.