Detailed Discussion Desired: Flying in the Past
I first came across INS in an RAF Britannia when I flew a Polar Trainer for half a dozen navigators at the end of their twelve month Spec N course in 1972. We had all sorts of kit fitted on tables in the passenger cabin including a Litton INS looked after by a Litton technician and a UK INS which was usually fitted in a Harrier at RAE Farnborough for recording parameters during test flights. I think it was made by Marconl.The Polar Trainer route was Brize - Thule nightstop, then direct to the North Pole, about twenty minutes of orbiting overhead the pole before setting course to Brize. The Farnborough INS was virtually useless, but this may have been due to the cobbled together nav read out. The Litton worked perfectly from take off to landing over twelve hours later and the Litton man spent half the time asleep or reading a pile of Playboy Magazines he brought with him. The Smiths flight system in the Brit surprised everyone with it's accuracy. (The compass was cheched every twenty minutes). Four years later I was flying DC8's with twin Litton 72 INS, which took twenty minutes to wind up and waypoints had to be entered manually. In Feb 1983 I was introduced to triple Honeywell IRS and glass screens in the B757 with only LNAV for the first six months. The DME updates were also a bit iffy and Map Shift caused problems during approaches on the nav display. On a couple of occasions the FMC decided we were at TOD for Palma in the middle of France. Fortunately I had the auto throttles disconnected to stop continuos hunting due to poor software, so we maintained height. Software updates and certification of the VNAV sorted most of the problems out by the end of 1983.
Last edited by brakedwell; 13th Feb 2017 at 22:41.
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Having flown both F.27s and H.S.748s I am very familiar with the use of water methanol and on one occasion nearly became a statistic as a result.
The water increased the density of the air and the methanol added a few more BTUs giving an increase in overall power. It was fairly expensive stuff so wet take-offs were only carried out as needed, but the pumps were always selected “On” during approach. Can’t remember the actual RPM that the water cut in, but it was around 75% thrust.
I had flown an eight sector day with three approaches down to absolute minimums but with no overshoots, and due to light loads and winter conditions had not used any water until the last sector.
With a contaminated runway and a steep climb out required due to terrain I elected to do a wet take-off.
As we accelerated down the runway and the water cut in there was an almighty surge of both engines accompanied by both noise and rapidly rising TGTs. I managed to abort with only a slight over temp on both.
In the ensuing investigation it turned out that what we had in the methanol tanks was in fact mostly avgas. An almost empty drum of water methanol which was stored in the hangar had been used to dump fuel from an other aircraft and had been re-cycled as a full drum of methanol.
The Gods were sitting on my shoulder on that day for had I needed to carry out a earlier missed approach, the outcome may have been very different…
The water increased the density of the air and the methanol added a few more BTUs giving an increase in overall power. It was fairly expensive stuff so wet take-offs were only carried out as needed, but the pumps were always selected “On” during approach. Can’t remember the actual RPM that the water cut in, but it was around 75% thrust.
I had flown an eight sector day with three approaches down to absolute minimums but with no overshoots, and due to light loads and winter conditions had not used any water until the last sector.
With a contaminated runway and a steep climb out required due to terrain I elected to do a wet take-off.
As we accelerated down the runway and the water cut in there was an almighty surge of both engines accompanied by both noise and rapidly rising TGTs. I managed to abort with only a slight over temp on both.
In the ensuing investigation it turned out that what we had in the methanol tanks was in fact mostly avgas. An almost empty drum of water methanol which was stored in the hangar had been used to dump fuel from an other aircraft and had been re-cycled as a full drum of methanol.
The Gods were sitting on my shoulder on that day for had I needed to carry out a earlier missed approach, the outcome may have been very different…
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Ex.
I have a memory of it being 14800rpm when the meth cut in on the 748 but I may be totally wrong.
I think standby meth, for the engine out case? (Stby and On, toggle switch on the centre console), was an option on later models but, again, I could be wrong.
It was very difficult to dip the meth tanks and easy to lose the dipstick in the tank.
I have a memory of it being 14800rpm when the meth cut in on the 748 but I may be totally wrong.
I think standby meth, for the engine out case? (Stby and On, toggle switch on the centre console), was an option on later models but, again, I could be wrong.
It was very difficult to dip the meth tanks and easy to lose the dipstick in the tank.
Last edited by finncapt; 14th Feb 2017 at 08:57.
I'm sure you are right Jock. The de-min water in the Proteus was only used at hot or high airfields and once switched on for take-off ran until it was all used up. Bahrain was the only place I ever remember using it, normally on the way to Gan.
Quote from brakedwell:
"Four years later I was flying DC8's with twin Litton 72 INS, which took twenty minutes to wind up and waypoints had to be entered manually."
That's the one! Only 9 waypoints; all to be loaded manually. For the uninitiated, that's using Latitude and Longitude: as in N5626.5 W00322.4 - easily screwed-up. So then we would religiously check that the TRK(T) and distance displayed between each waypoint coincided with the initial track (not the mean track) of the great circle between the two points. The figure on our computer plans was, IIRC, the mean track and on a long NAT track, for example, there could be a big difference between the two figures. Accordingly, there was a difference-table in our Nav Manual, which most of us had a copy of on our clip boards. Clip boards: remember those?
Usually it was not really practical or necessary to load all the turning points on airways in western Europe, as there were too many to keep up with the reloading. (And at the end of a flight the INS was not accurate enough anyway.) So we continued navigating using the usual beacons and HDG-select until we ran out of beacons.
IIRC, waypoint 0 was INS PPOS. The destination was eventually entered as waypoint 9, and on arrival the distance from 0 to 9 was recorded in the Tech Log for each INS.
Exaviator, that's a real horror-story of yours on water meth...
"Four years later I was flying DC8's with twin Litton 72 INS, which took twenty minutes to wind up and waypoints had to be entered manually."
That's the one! Only 9 waypoints; all to be loaded manually. For the uninitiated, that's using Latitude and Longitude: as in N5626.5 W00322.4 - easily screwed-up. So then we would religiously check that the TRK(T) and distance displayed between each waypoint coincided with the initial track (not the mean track) of the great circle between the two points. The figure on our computer plans was, IIRC, the mean track and on a long NAT track, for example, there could be a big difference between the two figures. Accordingly, there was a difference-table in our Nav Manual, which most of us had a copy of on our clip boards. Clip boards: remember those?
Usually it was not really practical or necessary to load all the turning points on airways in western Europe, as there were too many to keep up with the reloading. (And at the end of a flight the INS was not accurate enough anyway.) So we continued navigating using the usual beacons and HDG-select until we ran out of beacons.
IIRC, waypoint 0 was INS PPOS. The destination was eventually entered as waypoint 9, and on arrival the distance from 0 to 9 was recorded in the Tech Log for each INS.
Exaviator, that's a real horror-story of yours on water meth...
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If you want some ring tickling nostalgia,just open the memory banks on STAND 32 CAFU,attending your first IRT????The Memories of the Non Drinking,Non Smoking, Eastwood or Eric" Piles" Markwell,and then the bubbly Mike Edwards,who brought light relief!!There were of course others that were brilliant and fun to fly with,but the thought of the first two still bring shudders to the stomach!!An Ex 104 Luftwaffe Mate of mine,was alledged to have had "Piles" up against the wall,after he had failed him after a whole Ex 17 had been flown to CFD ,when on start up, he had in fact not been able to see the OAT,so failed the perpetual "Ice Checks", as being screened off,by the Scabair Instructor,who had delivered "Wolfee" for his Examination.Happy days and extremely funny times,which now would be very Non PC.I was very lucky to have flown with many wonderful colleagues,who like myself,endeavoured to add a bit of colour to the otherwiseoften dull norm!A Water Meth Take off with,I think 20flap,on the roll out of Soton was particularly good fun,plus being one of the Nominated "Bullet" crews by AMS ATC,it was always lovely to be able to break off from ILS to 19 about 250ft,then jink and arrive on Rnwy 24,then drive off the first taxiway into the Alphas and park with the pax dissembarking,before the queue of the rest of them in the hold,over the North Sea, had commenced their approaches!!!Then when we got the "Jet",positioning left hand base at 1500ft IMC on the weather radar,250kts,closing on to the 09 ILS at Guernsey,then closing the throttles and airbreak out hanging everything down from 210 kts to land and park,when the BA and Midland 737s were still 10 miles out.Wonderful times,and no such thing as Autopilot Stabilised Approaches,as we all knew what we were doing and trained by the best to be good handlers.A joy to remember it all,flooding back!!!!!
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Indeed it was,but further fun times were to be had with just as much a magnificent bunch of excellent Operators and Trainers on another outfit,that was a heavily guarded secret amongst the chaps, operating out of Cologne and Birmingham,and then Luton.
I think I'm right in saying that Eric passed away in October of 2015 at the grand old age of 92. How did he get the "Piles" nickname?
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 14th Feb 2017 at 20:02. Reason: wrong year
I did my CFU IRT with Eric.
During the debrief he asked why I had put the transponder on 100ft after take off and not before the take off roll.
'I thought a bloke of you experience would have known that Eric.'
'Well no I don't, why did you do it?'
'I forgot!'
He still passed me!
During the debrief he asked why I had put the transponder on 100ft after take off and not before the take off roll.
'I thought a bloke of you experience would have known that Eric.'
'Well no I don't, why did you do it?'
'I forgot!'
He still passed me!
The Memories of the Non Drinking,Non Smoking, Eastwood or Eric" Piles" Markwell,and then the bubbly Mike Edwards,who brought light relief!!
Bernie 'size 'em' Sercombe
'Chalky' Whitehead (did my initial IRT as well as GFT 1-3)
Mike 'smiler' Edwards (FI test)
'Chopper' Eastwood (IR retest and GFT 4)
'Ben' Gunn
Dennis 'Skin 'em alive' Skinner
I used see my candidates off and then wait out the result in the greasy spoon.
There was a telephone mounted on a pole outside from which we filed the afternoon's route 15 training sortie.
Stansted was fairly quiet in those days. Apart from the Fordair 1-11s and the CAFU 748s, 125s and Doves, the bulk of the traffic was IR training. You could fly around the SAN hold all day, shoot a few approaches and if your wheels didn't touch it was all free!
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I have a memory of it being 14800rpm when the meth cut in on the 748 but I may be totally wrong.
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On a lighter note I was recently reminded of a toilet incident that occurred back in the early 70s, during a period of flying DC-3s in Canada.
The aircraft toilet was located in the tail of the aircraft and consisted of a bucket with a wooden seat above it. To facilitate emptying, the bucket was lined with a black plastic bin liner and when away from base it was the F/Os job to take care of its disposal, which sometimes was a problem particularly at capital airports which were only geared to handling modern jets.
On a trip to Regina in Saskatchewan I had gone off to organise our return flight plan and had left my F/O to refuel and take care of the rather full "Honey Bucket".
On my return the F/O seemed rather agitated and in a hurry to depart. Once airborne and established in cruise I mentioned this observation to him and received his explanation.
Apparently rather than carry the actual bucket he had just tied off the full bin liner and carried it off the aircraft for disposal. His first choice had been a drain at the side of the tarmac but had noticed the tower operator taking an interest in his activities through binoculars so instead elected to go through the virtually empty terminal and use the main toilets to empty the bag.
Unfortunately, half way across the terminal the bottom fell out of the bag and dumped its contents on the polished tiled floor.
When I asked what he had done about it, he answered, "What could I do, I just kept on walking"...............
The aircraft toilet was located in the tail of the aircraft and consisted of a bucket with a wooden seat above it. To facilitate emptying, the bucket was lined with a black plastic bin liner and when away from base it was the F/Os job to take care of its disposal, which sometimes was a problem particularly at capital airports which were only geared to handling modern jets.
On a trip to Regina in Saskatchewan I had gone off to organise our return flight plan and had left my F/O to refuel and take care of the rather full "Honey Bucket".
On my return the F/O seemed rather agitated and in a hurry to depart. Once airborne and established in cruise I mentioned this observation to him and received his explanation.
Apparently rather than carry the actual bucket he had just tied off the full bin liner and carried it off the aircraft for disposal. His first choice had been a drain at the side of the tarmac but had noticed the tower operator taking an interest in his activities through binoculars so instead elected to go through the virtually empty terminal and use the main toilets to empty the bag.
Unfortunately, half way across the terminal the bottom fell out of the bag and dumped its contents on the polished tiled floor.
When I asked what he had done about it, he answered, "What could I do, I just kept on walking"...............
RR Dart Water Methanol was 55/45 mix.
IIRC the Dart 520 series were restored power and the 530 series were boosted power. The engines were the same, just the W/M unit different.
With system armed it cut in at 14500 rpm as the engine accelerated to 15000 rpm for T/O. In the climb when the rpm was reduced to 14200 the W/M stopped.
If you forgot to turn the pumps on before T/O and did so at 15000 rpm there would be a massive surge in power as the Water Meth unit on the engine adjusted its valve to control the flow and limit the torque. I saw this done once on an HP Herald by a training captain who had forgotten to arm the system.
Me, I was just a travelling spanner man, I wonder how often this happened?
IIRC the Dart 520 series were restored power and the 530 series were boosted power. The engines were the same, just the W/M unit different.
With system armed it cut in at 14500 rpm as the engine accelerated to 15000 rpm for T/O. In the climb when the rpm was reduced to 14200 the W/M stopped.
If you forgot to turn the pumps on before T/O and did so at 15000 rpm there would be a massive surge in power as the Water Meth unit on the engine adjusted its valve to control the flow and limit the torque. I saw this done once on an HP Herald by a training captain who had forgotten to arm the system.
Me, I was just a travelling spanner man, I wonder how often this happened?
Don't recall making that particular mistake, dixi188, and it sounds like the sort of thing one might remember. But then I only did 2 years on Dart Heralds. Does anyone else remember the flapping sound I mentioned in my previous post? You'll remember the other no-no on the Dart was to forget to select ground-fine during or after landing, and then open the taps to clear the runway...
Going back to the de-min water-injection on the Spey, the typical scenario would be a 1-11/500 departure from some over-heated, Spanish coastal airfield with a charter-load of pax for the UK. Don't have any figures to hand, but if memory serves the increase in RTOW was only about 200 - 400 kg? The water, which in our case had been carried with us on the outbound flight in several plastic casks, weighed 100 kg or so. Therefore, the difference to the available payload was only a couple of pax. Bit of an embarrassment. And first it had to be pumped into the tank. At most aerodromes, IIRC, that had to be done by the flight crew.
On one such occasion I found that the normal electric pump had not been available ex-base, and we'd been given a manual one instead. It wasn't self-priming, so I had to improvise and borrow a jug from the galley. Filling the jug involved tipping one of the fully-laden casks without spilling half the contents on to the apron. Then the pump had to be held upside down to fill the inlet tube from the jug, before rapidly dunking it into the cask. After pumping its contents dry, the process had to be repeated with the next cask. Happy days!
Going back to the de-min water-injection on the Spey, the typical scenario would be a 1-11/500 departure from some over-heated, Spanish coastal airfield with a charter-load of pax for the UK. Don't have any figures to hand, but if memory serves the increase in RTOW was only about 200 - 400 kg? The water, which in our case had been carried with us on the outbound flight in several plastic casks, weighed 100 kg or so. Therefore, the difference to the available payload was only a couple of pax. Bit of an embarrassment. And first it had to be pumped into the tank. At most aerodromes, IIRC, that had to be done by the flight crew.
On one such occasion I found that the normal electric pump had not been available ex-base, and we'd been given a manual one instead. It wasn't self-priming, so I had to improvise and borrow a jug from the galley. Filling the jug involved tipping one of the fully-laden casks without spilling half the contents on to the apron. Then the pump had to be held upside down to fill the inlet tube from the jug, before rapidly dunking it into the cask. After pumping its contents dry, the process had to be repeated with the next cask. Happy days!
Last edited by Chris Scott; 15th Feb 2017 at 19:20.
I don't remember a flapping sound from the Herald with W/M on, just lots of noise. One or two of our Captains had over 10,000 hours on them and were a bit deaf.
I did 2 years line maintenance with CEX at Hurn on Heralds and used to fly with them around the night freight routes, before becoming an F/E on the Electra.
In an earlier life, I also remember hand pumping de-min water into the 1-11 tank but this was from a small bowser that we towed around in Muscat.
I did 2 years line maintenance with CEX at Hurn on Heralds and used to fly with them around the night freight routes, before becoming an F/E on the Electra.
In an earlier life, I also remember hand pumping de-min water into the 1-11 tank but this was from a small bowser that we towed around in Muscat.
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de-min water:
If it only gave 200-400 kg I don't think BAC would have bothered. I've got old manuals showing over MTOW (99650lb) from 8000ft ISA, SL, but only 97000lb without water injection. Over a tonne therefore.
If it only gave 200-400 kg I don't think BAC would have bothered. I've got old manuals showing over MTOW (99650lb) from 8000ft ISA, SL, but only 97000lb without water injection. Over a tonne therefore.
The Spey's thrust curve was flat-rated to some temperature which I can't remember and which depended on elevation and water injection extended that flat rating. If you were at higher temperatures you got the benefit but at lower temperatures, where you were on the flat rating anyway, water gave nothing. It's a long time ago but I was surprised that there was any benefit at SL ISA but that reminded me that there was a 512"DW" which BAC used which did have a slight increase in the flat-rated thrust when wet. The low increase quoted before could have been with a 512 "W"