Detailed Discussion Desired: Flying in the Past
ahh.. manual loadsheets.
1. Doing the load-sheet in the upper deck of a B747 combi with the station manager, FE and some curious First class pax looking over your shoulder. A 747-400 combi at MTOW was jolly good fun.
2. Having your perfectly good load-sheet (albeit with a few corrections ... ah-hem) thrown out the direct vision window.
3. Chasing the crumpled piece of paper across the ramp.. by this time you'd usually learnt to have a few blank copies in the car but you'd need the old one to copy the basic data..(DOW, DOI, MLAW MTOW MZFW etc).
4. Drying your manual load-sheet using the avionics exhaust vent behind the nosewheel of a B747. Said Load-sheet usually got wet due to rain but also tears and blood.
5. Using your airport-pass as a ruler to draw the lines.
6. Handing over the load-sheet to the captain of a B747 freighter who was already in his shorts and t-shirt (on several occasions).
7. Handling a chartered World Airways flight where you just gave the compartment loads (1/2/3/4/5) to the FE and he used a slide rule thingy to calculate the trim in less than a minute (That was a nice guy and he gave me a spare he had on him). This was something for the exclusive use of calculating trim, not the circular aviation slide-rule.
Anil
1. Doing the load-sheet in the upper deck of a B747 combi with the station manager, FE and some curious First class pax looking over your shoulder. A 747-400 combi at MTOW was jolly good fun.
2. Having your perfectly good load-sheet (albeit with a few corrections ... ah-hem) thrown out the direct vision window.
3. Chasing the crumpled piece of paper across the ramp.. by this time you'd usually learnt to have a few blank copies in the car but you'd need the old one to copy the basic data..(DOW, DOI, MLAW MTOW MZFW etc).
4. Drying your manual load-sheet using the avionics exhaust vent behind the nosewheel of a B747. Said Load-sheet usually got wet due to rain but also tears and blood.
5. Using your airport-pass as a ruler to draw the lines.
6. Handing over the load-sheet to the captain of a B747 freighter who was already in his shorts and t-shirt (on several occasions).
7. Handling a chartered World Airways flight where you just gave the compartment loads (1/2/3/4/5) to the FE and he used a slide rule thingy to calculate the trim in less than a minute (That was a nice guy and he gave me a spare he had on him). This was something for the exclusive use of calculating trim, not the circular aviation slide-rule.
Anil
To say nothing of the joys of maintaining a listening watch on HF AM before Single Side Band was invented. Trying to make a position report could be a major challenge especially at night over Africa, the Middle East and Indian Sub-continent. Addis, Cairo, Aden, Bahrain, Karachi, Bombay and others were ALL on the same frequency and trying to shout over one another.
I remember hearing this gem one night (shortly after they had had a bit of a skirmish):
"Bombay, Bombay, Karachi" no answer.
"Bombay, Bombay, Karachi" no answer.
This went on and on and on.
Finally "Bombay, Bombay, Karachi. Why don't you answer me?"
The answer came back "Because I am not hearing you!".
Happy days.
I remember hearing this gem one night (shortly after they had had a bit of a skirmish):
"Bombay, Bombay, Karachi" no answer.
"Bombay, Bombay, Karachi" no answer.
This went on and on and on.
Finally "Bombay, Bombay, Karachi. Why don't you answer me?"
The answer came back "Because I am not hearing you!".
Happy days.
I suppose another one that comes to mind was flying around in aircraft that wouldn't go much above 15,000 ft and very seldom above 20,000 ft. What with that and very primitive weather radar, flying around at night (or even by day) in the Tropics could be quite exciting and many a time the only option was to bite the bullet and just go for it. Certainly, getting struck by lightning was a fairly common event (I once managed six strikes in a month).
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1 in 60 rule!!
Fuel graphs showing PNR, CP, LPD (All been renamed - to what I don't know)
TAS from OAT and MN chart
OFTS/AFTN/SITA addresses to tell folks you were coming.
Writing out your own CA48/F2919
T/O Perf was a bit hit and miss though.
No RTOTs or RTOGs - just the good old "D" and "X" Graphs. The twin turbo I was on had a choice of 3 flap settings for TO - each with or without Water Methanol. 'Optimisation' was pretty much up to you!! EFB Perf is rather better than that - but also prone to input errors as most airlines have discovered!!
No Emergency Turns/EO SIDs - use your head.
The 7 Ps
mcdhu
Fuel graphs showing PNR, CP, LPD (All been renamed - to what I don't know)
TAS from OAT and MN chart
OFTS/AFTN/SITA addresses to tell folks you were coming.
Writing out your own CA48/F2919
T/O Perf was a bit hit and miss though.
No RTOTs or RTOGs - just the good old "D" and "X" Graphs. The twin turbo I was on had a choice of 3 flap settings for TO - each with or without Water Methanol. 'Optimisation' was pretty much up to you!! EFB Perf is rather better than that - but also prone to input errors as most airlines have discovered!!
No Emergency Turns/EO SIDs - use your head.
The 7 Ps
mcdhu
noflynomore - brilliant and a most enjoyable read
Chief Pilots/training Captains straight out of the military who knew absolutely stuff-all about civvy ops. Some made utter goats of themselves.
Ex fast jet Captains who still operated single pilot and thought civvies were all gash. Oh boy did they get surprised.
Ex fast jet Captains who still operated single pilot and thought civvies were all gash. Oh boy did they get surprised.
JW411
Slight thread drift, but it was even worse if you were military going from, say,Bahrain, Dubai or Masirah to Gan.
Neither Bombay nor Madras would ever answer, the solution was to call Bombay saying Speedbird rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb and they'd usually come back saying 'Speedbird calling Bombay say again your callsign, and we'd reply negative Speed bird- it's Rafair whatever and send the position report. (Mind you we were still using morse code till the seventies possibly later with some agencies)
Slight thread drift, but it was even worse if you were military going from, say,Bahrain, Dubai or Masirah to Gan.
Neither Bombay nor Madras would ever answer, the solution was to call Bombay saying Speedbird rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb and they'd usually come back saying 'Speedbird calling Bombay say again your callsign, and we'd reply negative Speed bird- it's Rafair whatever and send the position report. (Mind you we were still using morse code till the seventies possibly later with some agencies)
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
NRU74. IIRC, didn't Addis have a similar problem? They didn't like the Brits, so wouldn't answer. The trick was to use a fictitious Aeroflot callsign, and when they answered..."Aeroflot zzz, relaying for Ascot xxx. He was ..etc. Seemed to work.
To say nothing of the joys of maintaining a listening watch on HF AM before Single Side Band was invented. Trying to make a position report could be a major challenge especially at night over Africa, the Middle East and Indian Sub-continent. Addis, Cairo, Aden, Bahrain, Karachi, Bombay and others were ALL on the same frequency and trying to shout over one another.
I remember hearing this gem one night (shortly after they had had a bit of a skirmish):
"Bombay, Bombay, Karachi" no answer.
"Bombay, Bombay, Karachi" no answer.
This went on and on and on.
Finally "Bombay, Bombay, Karachi. Why don't you answer me?"
The answer came back "Because I am not hearing you!".
Happy days.
I remember hearing this gem one night (shortly after they had had a bit of a skirmish):
"Bombay, Bombay, Karachi" no answer.
"Bombay, Bombay, Karachi" no answer.
This went on and on and on.
Finally "Bombay, Bombay, Karachi. Why don't you answer me?"
The answer came back "Because I am not hearing you!".
Happy days.
or
"Bombay, Bombay, Bombay, shut up Karachi"
One night one of our co-pilots (NC) got so frustrated trying to raise Bombay that he started making bugle noises on the frequency. It went like this:
"Taroot Taroo, Taroot Taroo, Taroot Taroo".
Nothing.
"Taroot Taroo, Taroot Taroo, Taroot Taroo".
Bombay finally responds:
"Speedbird 123 standby, man with trumpet go ahead"!
"Taroot Taroo, Taroot Taroo, Taroot Taroo".
Nothing.
"Taroot Taroo, Taroot Taroo, Taroot Taroo".
Bombay finally responds:
"Speedbird 123 standby, man with trumpet go ahead"!
Just remember, for many of us we were "flying in the past" - hand swinging props, tail wheels, no radio, 35,000ft without pressurisation (JP 3 and 4), etc. Go easy on we old men, and women.....
Ah yes, HF. Even with the luxury of SELCAL, flying B707s over the South Pacific, the eastern bit that is PPT-ACA, it was often necessary to turn 30* or so off track to get the target station, any station really, within the propagation pattern of the antenna on the fin. The B707 fin antenna had a propagation pattern roughly like a butterfly with the body axis aligned with the aircraft, so stations straight ahead or astern were out of it. Bloody lonely bit of airspace in the 1970s, about 6 aircraft per week, so we were rather keen to get our position reports off. Spoofing the ground operators was sometimes used here too, I am reliably informed. Calling in French would often elicit a response after a few tries in English as I hear it.
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North Atlantic 1958: 2 engines, 2 crew, 2 pax (in a hurry to mend VSO's Vulcan). For navigation: Gee, ADF, Consol, DME (Eureka). For comms: 2 x 10 chan VHF - not many to talk to but useful to say Hello and find out where the weather ships were. No A/P and no synch so much too busy to take pictures - bu66er all to see anyway - and cruise-climb (but remember what you're cleared at). Wouldn't have missed it . . .
McDhu....post #25...slightly confused. Was the 1 in 60 rule not laid (sic)down in a papal encyclical of 1968 ( Humanae Vitae??)which proscribed all artificial,ahem,intervention in procreation? And safety was offered by abstinence other than once in 60 days? Or have I misunderstood?
Water Methanol Injection; does anyone use the stuff nowadays? It was a big thing on the Dart and the Tyne. If I remember correctly, on the Dart it enabled take-off power to be restored to sea level conditions when operating in hot and high conditions (on the Tyne it would also give a 6% power boost at sea level). Apart from the built-in system itself, it meant carrying anything up to 2,000 lbs of the stuff around with you in the tanks. The biggest worry was running out of it just when you really needed it most (it lasted for about 4 minutes or so).
Then there was the problem of finding supplies of the right stuff wherever you went for not every airfield kept it.
I believe the BAC 1-11 (with Spey engines) used a similar system that used de-mineralised water. There was a terrible accident in Germany with one when the tanks were filled with the wrong specifiaction of water.
Then there was the problem of finding supplies of the right stuff wherever you went for not every airfield kept it.
I believe the BAC 1-11 (with Spey engines) used a similar system that used de-mineralised water. There was a terrible accident in Germany with one when the tanks were filled with the wrong specifiaction of water.
Landed on an autobahn following a double engine failure. The "wrong specification of water" turned out to have been kerosene.
We used De-min water in the Britannia, often procured from a local Coco Cola factory or Pepsi in the Middle East. Once switched on it ran until the tanks were empty. We also carried water to humidify the cabin.
chris341,
If you PM me with your email address I can send you some stories which might help give you some idea of what airline flying used to be like not so long ago.
If you PM me with your email address I can send you some stories which might help give you some idea of what airline flying used to be like not so long ago.