WW 2 Bombing Accuracy (or not)
Getting back to the original thread, it must be remembered that the Luftwaffe had the advantage of plenty of practice by the time the blitz began. Condor Legion in Spain and then Warsaw, Low Countries, France etc. At the start of the war some Bomber Command navigators were enrolled at Southampton University on navigation courses! As already mentioned the Luftwaffe didn't have that far to travel and the UK being an island, navigation was fairly easy, apart from the odd FW 190 and Ju88 that landed in England having mistaken the bristol channel for the English channel. The Lorenz system was in civilian use long before the war and was used at civilian airports as a night landing aid, along also with Luftwaffe use. Which brings me nicely to the fact that there were scheduled night mail flights across Europe before WW2 and one wonders why the RAF did not utilise these for training crews? Also one must remember that out the outset of war only 4Group flying Whitley's were the only designated night bombing group. It was only after the horrendous Wellington losses in December 39 that bomber command realised that night bombing was going to be the way forward for future operations. I think I am right in saying that bomber command lost more crews killed in the first 2 years of the war, than they killed Germans. It was a steep learning curve
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FlightlessParrot, I missed your comment about radar bombing accuracy. A generally accepted accuracy radar attack by a V-Bomber flying straight and level above 40k and about 480kts given a discrete aiming point was about 400 yards. It was said that the operational degradation would increase that to 750yds. If it was an evasive bomb run the error might be in the region of 1000yds [l] in training[/I]
The discrimination of H2S 2, a 10cm radar, was much less than H2S 4 or H2X. The Germans also camouflaged targets such as Hamburg to cause a shift in both radar and visual aiming points.
The discrimination of H2S 2, a 10cm radar, was much less than H2S 4 or H2X. The Germans also camouflaged targets such as Hamburg to cause a shift in both radar and visual aiming points.
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Thank you, Pontius. So what I have read, that bombing on radar through clouds was effectively area bombing, has at least an amicable relationship with the truth.
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FP, indeed, and of course the only operational radar bombing proved that on the Falklands. I am not sure what stick soacingvwas used but say 50 yards then the centre bomb on the stiuck that hit the runway was 500 yards off. The other stick missed the runway with a similar line error.
I was told one Valiant sqn used radar bombing and may have been close. The others made visual attacks.
I was told one Valiant sqn used radar bombing and may have been close. The others made visual attacks.
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Many years ago in flight magazine there was a letter which I think followed on from how small the RAF had become.
Someone pointed out that for the WW2 RAF to have the same bombing effectiveness as the current Tornado force they would have required more bombers than were available at the WW2 high point of bomber command.
I wish I had keep that as I also wish I had keep an advert from Flight published at about the same time.
Wanted... white paint for Enterprise type starship must be capable of withstanding warp factor nine.
I think someone had too much time on their hands!!!!
Someone pointed out that for the WW2 RAF to have the same bombing effectiveness as the current Tornado force they would have required more bombers than were available at the WW2 high point of bomber command.
I wish I had keep that as I also wish I had keep an advert from Flight published at about the same time.
Wanted... white paint for Enterprise type starship must be capable of withstanding warp factor nine.
I think someone had too much time on their hands!!!!
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Most of the WW.II Allied film footage I have viewed involves the extensive day-time bombing of olive groves, fruit orchards and wheat fields. Not a single pickle barrel.
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Pontius - I think you'll remember that the Valiant was long gone before the Falklands - they were all Vulcans ...
and they did staddle the runway (just!) but then they were using BA INS systems they'd "acquired" IIRC that drifted something cruel......................
and they did staddle the runway (just!) but then they were using BA INS systems they'd "acquired" IIRC that drifted something cruel......................
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On a tour of the Midland Hotel in Manchester recently our tour guide claimed that the hotel and the nearby town hall were deliberately not bombed in WW2 as Hitler wanted to use them after the war (which of course he expected to win).
Since the city of Manchester was bombed in WW2, I did wonder about the truth of our guide's remark, given the lack of accuracy of WW2 bombing.
Since the city of Manchester was bombed in WW2, I did wonder about the truth of our guide's remark, given the lack of accuracy of WW2 bombing.
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Pontius - I think you'll remember that the Valiant was long gone before the Falklands - they were all Vulcans ...
and they did staddle the runway (just!) but then they were using BA INS systems they'd "acquired" IIRC that drifted something cruel......................
and they did staddle the runway (just!) but then they were using BA INS systems they'd "acquired" IIRC that drifted something cruel......................
1) I suspect PN is referring to the operational use of Valiants in the Suez crisis (but I could be wrong)
2) The BA INS system (Carousel) was good enough to find the islands, but was not relevant to the bombing, which used the NBS system. Given that one of the offset points was based on the coastline (presumably uncertain), I think it is pretty amazing that the stick found the runway at all! Remarkable.
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Wasn't the idea to bomb at an angle to the runway? That way, it was pretty certain that one bomb would hit,which was enough. If they had bombed parallel, and been only slightly off, there would have been a neat row of holes in the middle of nowhere.
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SSD - I've heard the same said of the Brighton Dome, Senate House in London (although a friend of ours was a firewatcher on the latter and they did get some incendiaries) and (IIRC) Cologne cathedral. To my mind, to be sure of missing a target you have to be sure that your bombs will fall somewhere else - in other words you have to hit a different target. The Luftwaffe (and most of the RAF and USAAF) were not capable of such accuracy.
I also remember reading that on one of the American daylight raids (possibly Schweinfurt/Regensburg) the aiming point was the cathedral steps...
I also remember reading that on one of the American daylight raids (possibly Schweinfurt/Regensburg) the aiming point was the cathedral steps...
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I'm sure I read somewhere it took 30 B-17s or 17 Lancasters or 1 Mosquito to take out a No Ball site (V1 launch ramp). The Mosquito technique was a 4000lb cookie delivered from a vertical dive.
