BEA Trident London - Moscow 1971
Minimum was apparently important - one on each extremity....rest is just dressing.
Considering we were once dispatched from base with one of the only two artificial horizons that I could see U/S you would proberly understand the uselessness of such a stupid question in our "real" world.
Considering we were once dispatched from base with one of the only two artificial horizons that I could see U/S you would proberly understand the uselessness of such a stupid question in our "real" world.
Bill these RAF pilots ex Vanguards and Comets who were such wonderful trainers...would they be the same ones whose genesis was a peacetime airforce that lost 200+ airframes in one year in the 60s..had some fleet loses (%) greater than the Starfighter and trained those that stalled a Comet,Vanguard and a Trident 1 with 100% loss of life?
Please answer a question for me - what was the point of knowing how many static wicks the Trident possessed or does your definition of training differ from mine?
Please answer a question for me - what was the point of knowing how many static wicks the Trident possessed or does your definition of training differ from mine?
However - my generation came onto the T3 around 1973 after about 15 years in the airline - most of that in the right hand seat.
So we too suffered under those that generated his massive chip.
Fortunately we were able to get over it - and believe it made us better trainers.
And - no - I never found the number of static wicks gave me any sleepless nights so his question, as usual, leaves me mystified.
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Bill I see that you ignore the facts of the appalling accident rate in BEA during the 60s and 70s until BOAC effectively took over the training and revert to judgement (chip!) and talking down by quoting Latin.
After the fiasco of the Staines inquiry I borrowed six months salary to obtain an instructors license as well as joining the BALPA technical committee because I thought I could make a difference to the dinosaurs.
I didn't have anything to get over as I didn't condone the pack of lies told to the inquiry.
As one of our colleagues on Icarus wrote "when did an inquiry ever publish the truth" or words to that effect. Purely about protecting the establishment.
I left to what in effect was the BOAC operation on the VC 10 and when that was supposedly being retired I quit rather than rejoin the Trident fleet and all of the petty mindedness.
My only regret was not going up to the highland and island division where the operation needed captains who could fly and didn't rely on the copilots positioning the aircraft so that they could land.
As you know BEA management and training took all of the cream and easy trips because they needed to and the great tradition continues today. Pity they didn't recruit trainers on ability - it might have saved 7 of the 8 aircraft loses in my six years flying for the Hounslow flying club.
After the fiasco of the Staines inquiry I borrowed six months salary to obtain an instructors license as well as joining the BALPA technical committee because I thought I could make a difference to the dinosaurs.
I didn't have anything to get over as I didn't condone the pack of lies told to the inquiry.
As one of our colleagues on Icarus wrote "when did an inquiry ever publish the truth" or words to that effect. Purely about protecting the establishment.
I left to what in effect was the BOAC operation on the VC 10 and when that was supposedly being retired I quit rather than rejoin the Trident fleet and all of the petty mindedness.
My only regret was not going up to the highland and island division where the operation needed captains who could fly and didn't rely on the copilots positioning the aircraft so that they could land.
As you know BEA management and training took all of the cream and easy trips because they needed to and the great tradition continues today. Pity they didn't recruit trainers on ability - it might have saved 7 of the 8 aircraft loses in my six years flying for the Hounslow flying club.
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Yes, I'm not too sure about 'Leningrad's busy airport.' The interior of that building used to remind me of an abandoned market hall or railway station, such was it's size, though I remember the KGB staff were a little more friendly than those in Moscow.
Just two years after that Trident visit the new domestic "Terminal 1" opened between the runways at Leningrad, separating domestic and international operations, the former had long predominated, and the older building dropped back to the limited number of international flights until replaced in the last few years. But at the time I'm sure that ramp was probably pretty busy. Wow, look at all those Tu104s in the background.
For me, it always reminded me of a Soviet high school of the era. Actually I found it quite pleasant, although in recent years it could get overwhelmed by the likes of the Transaero 747 charter flights to Turkish resorts. The concessions for duty-free and restaurants were grossly overpriced, but these have been transferred lock, stock and barrel to the new terminal with the same branding and the same characteristics.
Initial trip through there I, too, anticipated stereotypical KGB (actually FSB by then) agent staff, so I was more than a little surprised to find most of them were under-25 women, chit-chatting away to one another as we were stamped through, with decidedly western make-up around their classic St Petersburg big blue eyes, their military-style uniforms and Russian oversized uniform flat hats looking quite out of place. Out in baggage reclaim, a Russian middle-aged woman had her suitcase opened on the customs inspection counter, and was giving a poor young customs chap what for, at full volume. He is cowering back from the counter somewhat, doesn't appear to know how to handle this invective from a lady who probably resembles his mama, and is decidedly getting the worse of the exchange.
First welcome to Russia
For me, it always reminded me of a Soviet high school of the era. Actually I found it quite pleasant, although in recent years it could get overwhelmed by the likes of the Transaero 747 charter flights to Turkish resorts. The concessions for duty-free and restaurants were grossly overpriced, but these have been transferred lock, stock and barrel to the new terminal with the same branding and the same characteristics.
Initial trip through there I, too, anticipated stereotypical KGB (actually FSB by then) agent staff, so I was more than a little surprised to find most of them were under-25 women, chit-chatting away to one another as we were stamped through, with decidedly western make-up around their classic St Petersburg big blue eyes, their military-style uniforms and Russian oversized uniform flat hats looking quite out of place. Out in baggage reclaim, a Russian middle-aged woman had her suitcase opened on the customs inspection counter, and was giving a poor young customs chap what for, at full volume. He is cowering back from the counter somewhat, doesn't appear to know how to handle this invective from a lady who probably resembles his mama, and is decidedly getting the worse of the exchange.
First welcome to Russia
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The RB162 in the Trident 3B was put in place to boost take off performance and in the type's early time in service it was regularly used making the type probably the loudest civil type in the world.
The engine was only used for the initial climb and was shut down after a maximum of five minutes. As time went by the engine was used infrequently, hot/high/heavy departures were the times the boost was used but as a number of the type in BA service were dedicated to internal shuttle flights, the engines were decommissioned (were they actually removed?) and the decommissioning was reportedly completed across the fleet when the 757 took over the longer European routes.
The engine was only used for the initial climb and was shut down after a maximum of five minutes. As time went by the engine was used infrequently, hot/high/heavy departures were the times the boost was used but as a number of the type in BA service were dedicated to internal shuttle flights, the engines were decommissioned (were they actually removed?) and the decommissioning was reportedly completed across the fleet when the 757 took over the longer European routes.
The Trident 3 was distinctively noisy with the boost engine generating a higher pitch more military sound on top of the already noisy Speys but I don't think it could touch the VC10 for sheer noise.
I also understood that as well as no controllable thrust there wasn't alot of engine monitoring going on for the booster having once heard a Trident pilot ask the company aircraft next to him at the holding point if he could see if the inlet doors were open for the forth engine.
As for the corporation rivalry at the time growing up in Stanwell it virtually decided who your childhood friends were if parents worked for 'the other lot' . Not many neutrals as back then Stanwell was virtually a company town for BEA BOAC , but I dont think it went as far as denying subload trips. In the early 70s I did a lot of these on my fathers BEA concessions often accompanied by a friend who was a BOAC FO and at times by others from the dark blue side.
I also understood that as well as no controllable thrust there wasn't alot of engine monitoring going on for the booster having once heard a Trident pilot ask the company aircraft next to him at the holding point if he could see if the inlet doors were open for the forth engine.
As for the corporation rivalry at the time growing up in Stanwell it virtually decided who your childhood friends were if parents worked for 'the other lot' . Not many neutrals as back then Stanwell was virtually a company town for BEA BOAC , but I dont think it went as far as denying subload trips. In the early 70s I did a lot of these on my fathers BEA concessions often accompanied by a friend who was a BOAC FO and at times by others from the dark blue side.
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Removing an engine, even one mounted on the centreline, would surely have given a weight and balance, not to mention certification, issue.
therefore reduced fuel burn, reduction in maintenance and scrap value?
Perhaps on the airframes initially dedicated to the shuttles but on later engine decommissioning?
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But the point is that it's not redundant weight if its removal puts the C of G outside limits and requires its replacement with a corresponding amount of ballast.
The first two would more easily be achieved by leaving the engine installed and just not using it. As for scrap value, the engine was mostly made of plastic, so scrap value would be negligible, almost certainly less than the cost of removing them.
In the days when I used to jumpseat on the EDI shuttle, it was not unknown to see "Lirttle Willie", as the boost engine was affectionately(?) nicknamed, being used on takeoff from LHR. So it was by no means restricted to hot/high/heavy takeoffs.
The use of particular Trident 3 aircraft dedicated to shuttle work seems to have started around 1978 when Trident 1s were being relegated to back up work. Certainly not all dedicated aircraft had their RB162s decommissioned at one go and there were rotations where non dedicated aircraft provided back ups once the Trident 1 withdrawal programme began.
When were you making your trips?
The use of particular Trident 3 aircraft dedicated to shuttle work seems to have started around 1978 when Trident 1s were being relegated to back up work. Certainly not all dedicated aircraft had their RB162s decommissioned at one go and there were rotations where non dedicated aircraft provided back ups once the Trident 1 withdrawal programme began.
And it certainly wasn't unusual to see several things placarded "Inop" on the Trident flight deck.
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I was a regular user of the MAN-LHRshuttle between 1979 and 1986 and through variousconnections had a number of jump seat rides. Thus my knowledge of the decommissioning. You are right about the inop placards! The last timre I remember hearing the fourth engine used was at GLA sometime around 1980 and I have no knowledge of use on the MAN shuttles from around 1979. Towards the end of Trident ops I had the luck to be on the last commercial flights of 2 Trident 3s.
Having been to boarding school under the path of Ringway between 1969 and 1974, might I ask if the Trident 3 was really the noisest ... in comparison with the BAC1-11, which I remember with fond delight, was capable of silencing even the most enthusiastic teacher?
Having lived in MQ at RAF Turnhouse with the Edinburgh Airport runway at the bottom of my garden (before new airport opened), I would agree with the above. Seriously noisy, high-pitched scream.