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A.S.T. Perth (Scone) 1966

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A.S.T. Perth (Scone) 1966

Old 24th Dec 2015, 12:55
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Scone

More interesting anecdotes, including those from Manoir. It being Christmas, however, can I plead the forbearance of our kind moderators in respect of the following, gross example of thread-drift...?

Anyone stumbling upon this thread who is unfamiliar with the unremarkable village of Scone (pronounced, roughly speaking, "skoon") on the Perth-to-Coupar Angus road may not be aware that it owes its name to a nearby ancient royal palace of the Scottish kings, which was home to the so-called Stone of Scone - a kind of royal artefact that is (or was?) supposed to have been seized by an English king in the 13th century. The stone has become an icon for the Scots, including nationalists who seek independence.

Coincidentally to this thread, there is current discussion on the authenticity of the stone that is currently housed at Edinburgh Castle.

The Daily Telegraph (an English newspaper) publishes two readers' letters today, together with a photo of the mysterious object on display. So now you can see that Manoir's interests are not confined to aviation!

Letters: England will not allow Scottish nationalists to hijack the EU debate - Telegraph

Can this really be the Coronation Stone?

SIR – Ian Hamilton, noted for taking the Stone of Scone from Westminster Abbey in 1950, queries whether it should be allowed south for the next coronation.
But the question remains whether it is the real coronation stone of Scotland. Its story suggests that the English soldiers who seized it in 1296 were given a drain cover. A piece of sandstone with a metal ring in it is an unlikely object for the function of crowning a king. Mr Hamilton is talking up his exploit but knows the stone has nothing to do with coronations, except those since Edward I captured it.
A beautifully carved stone that used to be in a church in Perthshire is a much more likely candidate.
Andrew H N Gray
Edinburgh

SIR – Last year, 1.2 million people queued at Edinburgh Castle to view the Stone of Scone. What they didn’t know is that it is probably less than 90 years old.
Ian Hamilton and his fellow nationalists removed the stone from Westminster Abbey on Christmas Day 1950. The following March, after a tip-off, the authorities found what they believed was the stone at the Abbey of Arbroath, and it was returned to Westminster.
Robert Gray, a stonemason and Scottish nationalist, was custodian of the stone during the intervening period. When he and Ian Hamilton drove to Arbroath Abbey with the stone, it is likely that they were delivering a replica he had sculpted decades before (he made more than one). Mr Gray’s son and daughter have confirmed this, and that the real stone rests at an unknown location in Scotland.
John McGurk

...

Merry Christmas everyone!
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Old 24th Dec 2015, 20:02
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The only name I remember was Primrose
KayKay, Primrose is an unusual surname & I wondered whether this might have been the Ian Primrose who was one of my students on the Gnat some 4 years later? If so I have very good memories of him as a person and as a pilot, but sadly he was killed in a JP crash out of Rissington after being "creamed off" for the CFS Course after graduating from Valley.
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Old 27th Dec 2015, 12:58
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NutherA2 - yes I'm sure it was Ian Primrose. A fine chap. He was one of the ones on the Chipmunk. He sailed through the PPL course. He came across as very confident and "comfortable in his skin". It was evident he was going to join the RAF. He may even have had an acceptance before he did the FS ? Very sorry to hear about his early demise.
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Old 1st Jan 2016, 09:31
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Yes kayKay, there were 6 of us:

You, me, Ian Primrose, the one who left fairly quickly, a guy whose surname was Richardson and ended up on Victors, and the guy who ran us around in his family 'van'.
Any offers?
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Old 1st Jan 2016, 11:37
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Very sorry to hear about his early demise.
According to the CFS History, he and his instructor, Flt Lt John Watson (31), were killed when their JP T.3 XM360 flew into Brown Clee Hill (the highest point in Shropshire) in low cloud on 24th January 1969. He was 21 when he died.
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Old 1st Jan 2016, 19:24
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Angel Course 32, 1966 and all that...

Happy New Year! Fifty years ago, the three putative students lucky enough to have persuaded BUA, AST and the Ministry of Aviation of our suitability for investment in the form of a flying cadetship on Course 32 were spending our last few days with our families before the journey up to Scone for our report on January 5th, a Wednesday. In my case that would involve a night-sleeper train from London-Euston to Perth, followed by a bus ride to Scone village and a walk of nearly a mile, carrying my bags, to the aerodrome. I'd previously made a similar journey for the main selection interview/test in November.

Our course officially started the next day, as it did for two others on the course: Charles Jordan, an R/O (radio-officer) from Morton Air Services (part of the BUA group); and "Sandy" Morris, the younger son of a local farming family. Charles, who had been in Bomber Command at the end of WW2 and had a son of my age, had obtained a PPL and was being sponsored by Mortons: a generous gesture by Sammy Morton. The Herons he flew as nav-cum-R/O-cum-general dogsbody had recently been re-certificated as two-pilot a/c. Sandy was the family black-sheep: restless, uninterested in farming and looking to travel the world. He had flown at Scone with the aero-club, had a PPL, and was self-funding.

My two fellow BUA cadets, Mike (aka Mick) Cross and Peter Leith-Smith, had PPLs. I was the only one of the five Brits with no flying hours (apart from about 40 mins with Cyril Sweetman on selection). Although we started on January 6th, we found that the remaining students on Course 32 - all foreign - had mostly started on December 13th for induction and language assessment (presumably).

So Course 32 was cosmopolitan, with 22 male students: a number gradually to be reduced by attrition. Here's an attempt at a start-list, in no particular order, with funding in brackets (MSA is Malaysia-Singapore Airlines), followed where known by his allocated-instructor's initials :

? Dias (MSA?) RF
W.K. Gui (MSA) AP
B.M. Abdul-Hamid (MSA)
J. Lau (MSA) EH
Musa (MSA?) AP
B.H. Ong (MSA) EH
A. de-Silva (MSA) CS
E.P. Soh (MSA) DK
Lt R.B. Karki (Nepalese Army Air Service) LH
Lt S.B. Malla (Nepalese Army Air Service) LH
? Pant (Nepalese Army Air Service) LH
Capt T.J. Thapa (Nepalese Army Air Service) LH
Ahmed (Sudan Airways?) * DK
T. El-Hassan (Sudan Airways) * TC
Ghafar (Sudan Airways?) * RF
S. Zulkifli (Sudan Airways) EH
M.B. Cross (BUA) DK
C. Scott (BUA) AP
P. Leith-Smith (BUA) RF
C.W. Jordan (Morton Air Services) CS
A.L. Morris (Private) TC
? Tittialetti (?) ?

- IIRC, we were all assigned to fly Cessna 150s, except (perhaps) Leith-Smith?
- Students annotated * had apparently flown about an hour's solo prior to starting the course, plus about 30 hrs dual.
- Most of the MSA guys seemed to be ethnic-Chinese from Singapore. They were all very bright.
- The Nepalese Army guys were all officers, and were to do a special course that would later involve much twin-engined flying at low level in mountainous areas the rest of us were forbidden to enter. They would not do the IR (Instrument Rating) course.
- The Sudan Airways guys may not have been planned for the IR course either, because I don't have any later record of them doing it. They found the English language very tough, and at least one (El Hassan) slipped to Course 33.

Further to my previous list of all the flying instructors I flew with, our nominated course instructor (for mass flight-briefings and mentoring) was Terry Capon, and our allocated flying instructors initially were Terry Capon, Cyril Sweetman (CS), Alec Peddell (AP), Ray Foote (RF), D. Kirkpatrick (DK), "Ernie" Holmes (EH), Geoff(?) Chandler, Lew Hurrell (LH).

(Terry Capon had been an RAF pilot late in WW2. After being de-mobbed, he had had a long, successful career in business but had recently returned to his first love: flying. I later flew with him for the first time when he was a skipper on Heralds in BUIA, and we both became VC10 co-pilots in 1971 (BCAL). The vagaries of seniority prevented him from getting a command again before retirement.)

Last edited by Chris Scott; 27th Jan 2016 at 19:13. Reason: Langevad and Pereira deleted. Corrections and additions. Further additions. Tittialetti added.
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Old 2nd Jan 2016, 19:45
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Flying Exercises

The flying-exercise codes were listed for quick reference on the reverse side of a handy blotter. Sponsored by a Perth firm of printers & stationers by the name of D. Leslie (whose advert is just off the bottom of this photo), it was doubly useful for the majority of us that used fountain pens (containing Parker permanent Quink, of course) for our logbook entries.



There have been a couple of recent threads in AH&N on the RAAF and RAF codes, which seem to have changed slightly over the years after WW2. As Pooch was a retired W/Cdr, and other senior instructors were ex-RAF, it's no surprise that the AST one was remarkably similar in 1966. Note, however, that "13" happened to be reserved for First Solo.

CSman,
As you have removed your post, I take it you have found how to post your 35-Course photo?

Last edited by Chris Scott; 13th Jan 2019 at 13:22. Reason: Image reinstated.
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Old 3rd Jan 2016, 13:14
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Course 35 photo

regretfully not,but have created an album with the photo,but how to proceed I know not
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Old 3rd Jan 2016, 17:07
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course35

trying once more[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 3rd Jan 2016, 18:44
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Superbe, CSman!

(The blotter took me half a dozen attempts... ) That's good news, because I just happen to have course photos for courses 25 & 26 (without names); 27, 28, 29 & 30 (with names); and 31, 32 & 34 (without names). Will have to make JPGs, however. Manoir is promising us one for his Course 33 in due course.

Can you clear up one point? By 1966, the CPL courses generally started at roughly two-month intervals (increased from 4 per year to 6 per year). Course 33 started on March 6, which was two months after the real start of Course 32 (Jan 6). The AST quarterly journal for Winter 1965/6 lists the projected start dates as follows: Course 34 April 18, Course 35 June 13, Course 36 August 23, Course 37 October 17, Course 38 December 12, Course 39 (1967) February 13, Course 40 April 17.

Can you confirm that, in the event, your Course 35 didn't start until September?

EDIT
On reflection, and seeing the dual start dates for my Course 32 (see my specific post), it's likely that the above dates apply only to foreign-speaking students. Any anglophone students probably start about 3 weeks later, which would represent the start of the proper course. If so, the 1966/7 start dates can be amended as follows:
Course 32 (1966) January 6
Course 33 March 6
Course 34 May
Course 35 July
Course 36 September
Course 37 November
Course 38 (1967) January
Course 39 March
Course 40 May

2nd EDIT (20th Jan 2023) in tribute to CSman (Terry Morgan) R.I.P., whose photo of Course 35 had disappeared.
Here it is:

Quote from CSman (Terry Morgan):
"Some names that come to mind after looking at the Photo
Top row left Paul Watson [Britannia], John Anquetil [BUA ] jersey lad, Myself
[Cambrian BA,] Adrian Crossthwaite,? Robin Munday [BA 747] A Reynolds [Malaysian Airlines] Next one unknown, top right Victor OH [Singapore Airlines
Became Chief pilot Singapore Cargo]
Bottom left Dave Williams [Cambrian BA 737 training Capt] P Harding Bua guy believe he was a DC10 Capt, next Chris Males lovely guy from Manchester area,have no idea who he flew for after BUA, LIM sat next we had two by the name of Lim on the course John Field[Cambrian BA retired early] K E WONG [Singapore airlines 747 Capt] Lim BOB Stocker,wonderful Guy [initially was Britannia FE ,used to leave Perth every weekend to fly as FE for Globe Air Finally 747 Capt BA, next another Gent who I can not remember,and finally A Pothera Malaysian Airlines Be came Fleet manager 747"

Last edited by Chris Scott; 20th Jan 2023 at 21:16. Reason: Courses' start-dates clarified (2) Reposting Course 35 photo
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Old 3rd Jan 2016, 21:10
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start date course 35

Not quite positive on the start date ,May have reported to Scone in AUG but from my log book first flight 5/9/66 also not sure how many of the course are still with us I know that a couple have left us

Last edited by CSman; 3rd Jan 2016 at 21:17. Reason: info
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 15:14
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Course 35 photo

Some names that come to mind after looking at the Photo
Top row left Paul Watson [Britannia], John Anquetil [BUA ] jersey lad, Myself
[Cambrian BA,] Adrian Crossthwaite,? Robin Munday [BA 747] A Reynolds [Malaysian Airlines] Next one unknown, top right Victor OH [Singapore Airlines
Became Chief pilot Singapore Cargo]
Bottom left Dave Williams [Cambrian BA 737 training Capt] P Harding Bua guy believe he was a DC10 Capt, next Chris Males lovely guy from Manchester area,have no idea who he flew for after BUA, LIM sat next we had two by the name of Lim on the course John Field[Cambrian BA retired early] K E WONG [Singapore airlines 747 Capt] Lim BOB Stocker,wonderful Guy [initially was Britannia FE ,used to leave Perth every weekend to fly as FE for Globe Air Finally 747 Capt BA, next another Gent who I can not remember,and finally A Pothera Malaysian Airlines Be came Fleet manager 747

Last edited by CSman; 7th Jan 2016 at 21:14. Reason: found name
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Old 5th Jan 2016, 19:01
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Course 27 (1965 - 1966)

Course 27 probably started early in 1965 and ran until the summer of 1966.



Dave (?) Hawkins, Norman Waller, Martin Mann *^, ? Smith, ? Dolly.
Tim Bennett, ? Flood, Dennis Murphy, John Mullin,

Absent from the photo: Barry Jackson.

*^ Martin won the Principal's Award for No. 27 Course.

CPL/IR courses at Perth tended to end with a whimper, rather than a bang, because of the vagaries of weather (particularly in the winter) and availability of IREs from the Ministry**. Once a student had passed his Instrument Rating, he was off the premises a.s.a.p., to minimise costs!

** Ministry of Aviation's Civil Aviation Flying Unit (CAFU), based at Stansted. (The MoA was soon to become the Board of Trade, Civil Aviation Department.)

Last edited by Chris Scott; 13th Jan 2019 at 22:37. Reason: Reinserting image.
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Old 6th Jan 2016, 22:36
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Course 28 (1965 - 1966)

CPL/IR Course 28 probably started 2 months after Course 27, around Spring '65, as the rate of courses was apparently being ramped-up from 4 per year to 6 per year during 1965.



Can readers confirm some first-names and sponsoring airlines?

Last edited by Chris Scott; 1st Jan 2019 at 18:45. Reason: Image reinstated. All course photos are from the college magazine.
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Old 7th Jan 2016, 11:50
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Ian,

You and I must have been there at the same time though we never talked about it at Sleaford Tech. Hope to see you in 2018 at whatever gets organised. Bill
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 19:37
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Course 29 (1965 - 1966)

Course 29 probably started in the summer of 1965, and ran to about the autumn of 1966.



Bill Newman and, IIRC, Peter Dawes were BUA-sponsored. They went to BUAF and BUA (CI) respectively.
Not sure about the others, but I think D.G. (David) O'Shea was a private student. He may have had funding problems, because he seems to have slipped to
Course 31 by August 1966. S.Chehab seems to have been a Kuwaiti prince, and was presumably self-funding.

Last edited by Chris Scott; 1st Jan 2019 at 18:39. Reason: Reinstating image
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 22:46
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AST, Perth 1966/67 (Course 33)



AST, Perth - Autumn 1966



Back row: Al Hassan, Bill Passmore, John McGurk, Mike Maybey, Norman Lane, Mike King, Paddy Costigan, John Derham, Gerry Murtagh.

Front Row: Derek Brittain, Rory Power, Barry O'Brien, Chris Kennedy, Nicky McDonnell, Donal Foley, Joe Cull, John Boylan, Kevin Webb

Missing from this photo are Dave O'Shea,Brian Murphy and Pat Lynch...see my earlier post.

Last edited by Manoir; 14th Jan 2019 at 13:29. Reason: Better picture
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Old 10th Jan 2016, 06:02
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Course 29

What is reassuring about the Course 29 picture is that I remember all those faces, with the exception of D.G. O'Shea. (It is worth pointing that he and the Dave O'Shea who was part of the original Course 33 were not the same, nor were they related.Though Dave had his training terminated at Perth by Aer Lingus, he completed it the following year at an academy in Vero Beach, Florida. Aer Lingus were increasingly sending their cadets to the Vero Beach school and the higher standards of the students who had been to Perth was observed and commented upon by Lingus training personnel).
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Old 11th Jan 2016, 17:38
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Youu might want to preview your replies before posting them, to ensure that the photos you refer to are visible.
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Old 11th Jan 2016, 20:45
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Scone

Thanks Dave,

It worked for the Course 33 photo but not these two. I will keep trying.
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