Mystery Monoplane
Join Date: Aug 2006
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First of all, I do not know if I am correct. It is only my conclusion. I will have to obtain and watch the entire movie Wings for confirmation.
What drew me to the movie Wings? For a variety of reasons, I thought the scene did not look like a real crash. It looked staged to me. I researched W.W.I flying movies made in the late 1920's and early 1930's. As an amateur aviation historian, I recall Howard Hughes being influenced by the movie Wings prior to producing and directing Hell's Angels. A survivable crash being a pivotal scene in Wings, plus the barren topography, and the French-style house were clues that led me to my conclusion.
Why the Breguet Bre.19? I eliminated U.S.-built aircraft early on. The engine design led me to Europe. The internal fuselage bracing forward of the gunner's position, the Scarfe ring, the tail empennage, the wire bracing, and the shape of the centre strut damage atop the firewall led me to the Bre.19. Also, I am assuming the non-standard holes in the engine fairing covers were installed for hot weather cooling considerations.
What drew me to the movie Wings? For a variety of reasons, I thought the scene did not look like a real crash. It looked staged to me. I researched W.W.I flying movies made in the late 1920's and early 1930's. As an amateur aviation historian, I recall Howard Hughes being influenced by the movie Wings prior to producing and directing Hell's Angels. A survivable crash being a pivotal scene in Wings, plus the barren topography, and the French-style house were clues that led me to my conclusion.
Why the Breguet Bre.19? I eliminated U.S.-built aircraft early on. The engine design led me to Europe. The internal fuselage bracing forward of the gunner's position, the Scarfe ring, the tail empennage, the wire bracing, and the shape of the centre strut damage atop the firewall led me to the Bre.19. Also, I am assuming the non-standard holes in the engine fairing covers were installed for hot weather cooling considerations.
Last edited by evansb; 3rd Nov 2015 at 23:23.
Thread Starter
evansb:
"How did the photograph come into your possession?"
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply but I thought I had better get the story right. A French colleague sent me some photographs of 42 Squadron BE2s and personnel to comment upon. He also sent the "mystery monoplane" photograph.
It appears that he purchased the BE2 material from eBay (America).
However, he tells me that the photograph in question was found inside a French book.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with the Breguet Bre.19. I also like your idea about a staged crash for a movie. Do we accept that those are US markings on the rudder or something else? What would a Breguet 19 be doing at Kelly Field and how did it get there?
Is it possible that the movie company slapped some paint on a Breguet 19 in France and filmed the fake crash scene there?
In any event, I would like to thank you all for your ideas and I am as usual in awe of evansb's contribution.
"How did the photograph come into your possession?"
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply but I thought I had better get the story right. A French colleague sent me some photographs of 42 Squadron BE2s and personnel to comment upon. He also sent the "mystery monoplane" photograph.
It appears that he purchased the BE2 material from eBay (America).
However, he tells me that the photograph in question was found inside a French book.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with the Breguet Bre.19. I also like your idea about a staged crash for a movie. Do we accept that those are US markings on the rudder or something else? What would a Breguet 19 be doing at Kelly Field and how did it get there?
Is it possible that the movie company slapped some paint on a Breguet 19 in France and filmed the fake crash scene there?
In any event, I would like to thank you all for your ideas and I am as usual in awe of evansb's contribution.
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Some observations: I agree the majority of the participants look American but the jarring note is the woman on the extreme right wearing typical French peasant woman's garb of blouse, white apron over a skirt, dark stockings and, the real giveway, the wooden clogs called sabots. Whilst this may have been taken in France, the staged wreck for a film is equally likely with the woman being so dressed for authenticity.
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Yeah, that's been worrying me too, I had the feeble excuse that it was put on to impress potential customers of its long-range military potential (but I don't really buy it)
About the scarfe-ring: I think it possible is a part of the fuselages strenght due to the loss of longitudinal trusses where the opening is cut-out :-/
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Flybiker,
Line 1: Agree. The longer you look, the more you see.
Line 2: Possible, but I somehow doubt it.
So, the questions now are...
evansb: Did you get to have a look at 'Wings' to confirm that's a set from the film?
In the event that it is from that film, then what's the provenance of that particular aircraft?
AFAIK, there had been only one Bre19 visitor to USA (New York).
How did this particular one get to Texas?
The fact that its Scarff ring is still mounted and that the fabric surfaces are still in good nick suggests that it had recently been retired from military service.
It has also been dismantled and, sort of, re-assembled to represent a crashed warplane.
The USAAC didn't operate Bre19s.
Closer to the USA, Breguet 19s were operated by Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and Equador.
The props acquisition manager knew where to get a suitable aircraft (or major components thereof) cheap - and not all that far from Texas.
In the 'highly unlikely' department, it's remotely conceivable that during a 'goodwill' visit from one of the 'neighbours', one may have come a cropper
on US soil, was written off and left behind.
Anybody got a plausible idea where it may have come from?
.
Line 1: Agree. The longer you look, the more you see.
Line 2: Possible, but I somehow doubt it.
So, the questions now are...
evansb: Did you get to have a look at 'Wings' to confirm that's a set from the film?
In the event that it is from that film, then what's the provenance of that particular aircraft?
AFAIK, there had been only one Bre19 visitor to USA (New York).
How did this particular one get to Texas?
The fact that its Scarff ring is still mounted and that the fabric surfaces are still in good nick suggests that it had recently been retired from military service.
It has also been dismantled and, sort of, re-assembled to represent a crashed warplane.
The USAAC didn't operate Bre19s.
Closer to the USA, Breguet 19s were operated by Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and Equador.
The props acquisition manager knew where to get a suitable aircraft (or major components thereof) cheap - and not all that far from Texas.
In the 'highly unlikely' department, it's remotely conceivable that during a 'goodwill' visit from one of the 'neighbours', one may have come a cropper
on US soil, was written off and left behind.
Anybody got a plausible idea where it may have come from?
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 9th Nov 2015 at 22:42.
Thread Starter
"The USAAC didn't operate Bre19s"
However, during a recent Google session, I saw a drawing of a Breguet 19 in US Navy colours. Did they perhaps operate some or was the drawing a figment of someone's imagination?
However, during a recent Google session, I saw a drawing of a Breguet 19 in US Navy colours. Did they perhaps operate some or was the drawing a figment of someone's imagination?
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Ah! Good question, 411.
Undoubtedly, Breguet would have tried to sell the Bre19 to both the USAAC and USN at the time of their sales tour of the Americas.
Perhaps they left their demonstrator behind?
One point that niggles with me, though, is your advice that the photo was found in a FRENCH book.
Hmm.
Back to the 'Wings' film, I noted that the director additionally distributed 10 hand-held cameras to members of his crew for use during battle scenes.
His instruction to these cameramen was to shoot everything and anything during the action sequences.
Now, if we look at the photo again, on the lower middle there is a left shirt-sleeve of someone who could be using a hand-held camera.
That shirt-sleeve doesn't look like WWI period costume to me. If anything, it looks a bit 'Hollywood-ish'.
Waddya think?
.
Undoubtedly, Breguet would have tried to sell the Bre19 to both the USAAC and USN at the time of their sales tour of the Americas.
Perhaps they left their demonstrator behind?
One point that niggles with me, though, is your advice that the photo was found in a FRENCH book.
Hmm.
Back to the 'Wings' film, I noted that the director additionally distributed 10 hand-held cameras to members of his crew for use during battle scenes.
His instruction to these cameramen was to shoot everything and anything during the action sequences.
Now, if we look at the photo again, on the lower middle there is a left shirt-sleeve of someone who could be using a hand-held camera.
That shirt-sleeve doesn't look like WWI period costume to me. If anything, it looks a bit 'Hollywood-ish'.
Waddya think?
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 10th Nov 2015 at 11:45.
Thread Starter
Indeed; I also wondered if that could be a chap wielding a cine camera in the right foreground.
My friend is quite explicit that this photograph was found inside a French book. Since he lives near Bailleul that is probably not surprising. Most of the books in his neck of the woods will be French books apart from some written in Flemish!
I also wonder about the structure that can be seen behind the people on the earth bank. It reminds me of an old open trailer that I used to use to transport my old glider from A to B. Could it be that it had just delivered the bits of the aircraft or perhaps has come to take them away.
My friend is quite explicit that this photograph was found inside a French book. Since he lives near Bailleul that is probably not surprising. Most of the books in his neck of the woods will be French books apart from some written in Flemish!
I also wonder about the structure that can be seen behind the people on the earth bank. It reminds me of an old open trailer that I used to use to transport my old glider from A to B. Could it be that it had just delivered the bits of the aircraft or perhaps has come to take them away.
