BOAC B707 ops in the 1960s

[Jhieminga]

Originally Posted by ExSp33db1rd

Some have, "Behind the Cockpit Door" by Arthur Whitlock for one, and an ex-Hamble trained, recently retired BA skipper, has recently published Part One of his memoirs, name not immediately to mind - like where are the car keys - but someone else might know before I start digging around.

Also, Glamour in the Skies, Stewardess tales by Libbie Escolme-Schmidt - whom I remember flying with as Libby Escolme.

The one you're looking for is Gwyn Mullet, he's got a site at www.withmyheadintheclouds.com
His book is a great read!

[ExSp33db1rd]

finncapt - I agree with all of that Astro folklore, or at least my old memory does !

I recall choosing recognisable stars over those giving the best "cut", better to have a slightly off centre fix than one totally incorrect due to using the 'wrong' star.

vctenderness - Half Pint was the C/Stwd. on my final route check for promotion, taxying out I stopped and asked for Half Pint to come to the flight deck and asked him to sit in the jump seat. Why ? he asked. So I know what the Bl**dy Hell you're doing, I replied. He roared with laughter and buckled in.

The Training Captain wondered what he had let himself in for.

Half Pint got his own back, when I got off at LHR my jacket sleeves had been stitched up at the cuff end, and the innards of a (clean ! ) Tampax had been stitched around the peak of my cap to simulate the gold braid of a Captains' hat !!

Happy Days.

P.s. It was Half Pint who told Dudley Moore to get his hair cut - see my post on another thread !

jhieminga - thanks, that's it. ( I said retired, maybe not yet ? )

[Spooky 2]

This has been great thread with many fond memories invoked even though I was not a BOAC crewmember.

Was wondering how you transitioned from the nav position to whatever came next in the 707-336B/C?

My experience was that we went from the Navs to dual Bendix Doppler backed up by an EDO 600 Loran A unit which the pilots were qualified to use. Almost every pilot had previous nav experience much as would seem to be the case at BOAC. As the airline kept adding crewmembers the lack of previous nav experience would come into play. I left the airline but I believe the Doppler and Loran was kept until the 707's were phased out. I know the Carousel lV was fitted in some airplanes as a trial in anticipation of the 747 entering service but for some reason I don't think it was a normal operational configuration?


So, did BOAC/BA keep the navs in place until the INS was fitted and certified in the 707, or did they go another route? If so what time period this eventually happen?

[arem]

All Navs were pilots so once all the 707's and I guess VC-10's were fully INS equipped we just transitioned to a 3 man operation - thankfully!

[ExSp33db1rd]

So, did BOAC/BA keep the navs in place until the INS was fitted and certified in the 707, or did they go another route? If so what time period this eventually happen?

I don't recall INS being retrofitted to the 707 - 436 until around 1974 or later, but I think we were still carrying Nav. qualified F/O co-pilots / S/O 3rd pilots until around the end of 1974, certainly my logbook records two F/O's on trips at the end of 1974.

I think some of the older F/O's escaped the Nav. stint, but certainly all pilots, be they experienced RAF pilots or basic 2 year National Service conscripts, taken on during the 50's and 60's were engaged as pilots, but employed as navigators. I kept my post as a Nav Instructor until I was promoted Captain in 1974, tho' I had been also re-trained as a 707 pilot in 1962. We filled the dual role, 2 F/O's on each flight, and they would decide themselves who operated which sector as co-pilot or navigator on the longer, multi sector trips, unless one was needed in the Nav. Instructor role.

The 747 was delivered with a sextant mount in the roof of the flight deck, but never used, it then featured on an emergency check list as a smoke removal port !

Training as a navigator I found the atmosphere on the flight deck a little tense at times, the navigators were training us to take away their livelihoods, tho' to be fair I was never treated with anything less than a genuine interest in passing on their knowledge, great chaps, but the Flight Engineers had seen the Radio Operators go, then Nav's were going, and they reckoned that they were next. True, but it took more than 20 years to achieve, and I recall on one double F/Eng. flight the Snr. Eng. telling his junior colleague that the pilots had forgotten to record the take-off time - Don't tell them, he said !

One navigator told me that I'd never make a navigator until I'd been over Berlin with the shells coming through the cockpit as I tried to sort out the actual wind velocity using the drift sight. I never had to, but I had the same sort of feeling towards some of my students as they wrestled with the sextant - but they don't have to now !

I believe that someone not too long ago tried to copy Lindberghs solo flight across the Atlantic, using original methods, which included Astro, for which a Flt. Nav, licence was required but that no one in the FAA knew how, or was qualified, to conduct an airborne Flt. Nav. test ! They should have asked me !

.......a dual Bendix Doppler backed up by an EDO 600 Loran A unit

Yes, the 707's were fitted with Doppler and Loran A, but I seem to recall that the Doppler was not a lot of use, particularly over water ? We also used Consol, invented for the Nazi U-boats I believe.

[Spooky 2]

Thanks for the reply. As for Doppler's performance over land or water I can only report that it worked for me fairly well over both surfaces and other than "drop outs" over a smooth sea I don't recall any serious issues. I seem to recall it working better on the N Atlantic than the Pacific due to rougher seas. Regardless it was approved for leaving the nav at home.

[vctenderness]

Exsp33db1rd

Thanks for the fantastic Halfie story. Here's another one:

I was a little sprogg working the back galley of a VC10. Half Pint was Chief Steward.

During the main meal service he walked through the cabin asking the passengers if all was well. One pax said ' well my entree was not very hot'.

Halfie appeared in the galley and asked why the meals weren't hot enough. I said they had been cooked for the required time.

He pulled himself up to his full four foot six held one finger up in front of my face and said:

" use your f*****g fermometer".

I remember it so well so many, many years later.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by arem

All Navs were pilots so once all the 707's and I guess VC-10's were fully INS equipped we just transitioned to a 3 man operation - thankfully!

Given that the BOAC Hermes misnavigation accident in the Sahara was principally caused by a pilot standing in for the rostered navigator, and not understanding the kit sufficiently, I would have thought that much attention would have been given to formalising the Nav position after this.


I do recall that when Pan Am started the first US service to China, which routed via Tokyo, they did not feel their crews had sufficient navigation support across the new territory, and engaged freelance navigators on the sector onward from Japan, who were doubtless familiar with the territory and supplied their own charts etc. I believe their Lockheed Tristar 500 was the aircraft first used; did that have any astral navigation fitout ? Presumably not as the aircraft did not have a formal Nav station.

[Spooky 2]

Nor did the DC10 have any sextant port. The story I heard regarding the port on the 747 was that Pan Am did not have complete confidence in the Carousel INS as the certification process evolved so this was their worst case back up solution.


Doubt if Pa Am allowed any "free lance" navs on the flight deck but Chinese navigators may have been onboard to monitor during the initial flights. Probably looking for any intelligence points of interest in lieu of any meaningful nav assistance.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by Spooky 2

Doubt if Pan Am allowed any "free lance" navs on the flight deck.

This was actually described in a Flight magazine article reporting on the Pan Am first flights into China when they started. It didn't state whether they were Chinese or Western nationals.

[Discorde]

I believe that someone not too long ago tried to copy Lindberghs solo flight across the Atlantic, using original methods, which included Astro

Lindbergh used DR - his plan was to load enough fuel for 40 hours of flight, on the basis of 'I can't miss the whole of Europe'. The aircraft was fitted with a drift meter but no other nav aids or even radio. In the account of the flight in his book 'The Spirit of St Louis' he admits that achieving landfall over Ireland within a few miles of his plan was just good luck.

Lindbergh's book was an inspiration for me. I'd been a plane-spotter as a kid (living near to the 28L OM) but it was after reading the SoSL as a 19-year-old that I decided 'I have to learn to fly'. The book won a Pulitzer prize in 1952.

It was disappointing years later to discover that CL had unsavoury political views. But every few years I put my misgivings to one side and re-read SoSL. That book launched me on a career in aviation (Leeds UAS 1967) which is not yet concluded.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Discorde - thank you for the correction, but I recall reading that the pilot trying to copy him still needed a Flt. Nav qualification to set off across the Atlantic, even if Lindbergh didn't, and that there was no one qualified to issue that. Can't recall detail now, maybe it was just an Urban Myth at the time ?

[evansb]

Regarding the navigational equipment on Charles Lindbergh's Ryan NYP -

A Drift Meter is not very effective without a compass. Lindbergh's primary navigational aid, (other than looking through the periscope and side windows), was an Earth Inductor Compass, driven by an anemometer mounted on top of the fuselage behind the cockpit. Quite accurate. Yes!...an electrically driven cockpit navigational aid in the 1920s!

[ExSp33db1rd]

............ as well as the massive ventral fin (don't over rotate on take-off):

That was fitted at the behest ( demand ? ) of the British ARB when the 707-436 was presented for UK registration. (also I believe the second hydraulic rudder boost system, the switch was fitted as an afterthought on the edge of the F/E's panel -but don't quote me, a long time ago now ! )

The early PanAm 707's didn't have that ventral fin, and I recall a PanAm pilot thanking us one day in New York Customs Hall as we awaited our bags. He reckoned each take off was a breath holding cheap thrill, there being a speed range at which, should an engine quit on take-off, there was insufficient rudder control and authority to keep it straight and on the runway until the larger, ventral, surface and added hydraulic assistance was fitted.

I think that there was the occasional tail scrape, can't quote, never happened to me.

just sayin'

[evansb]

The dreaded Dutch
No rudder commands?...

[mustafagander]

The ventral fin was fitted when the B707-100 had the fan engines fitted to make them B707-120 series. They also made the aircraft "geometry limited" as a bonus reducing some margins for the Vr and Vlo speeds. It had nothing to do with the British ARB. There are many other sins to be laid at their door but not this.

It wasn't just the RR Conways which required the ventral fin and rudder power boost, actually the RR engines were little more than a side show given the few that actually flew. It was the P&W JT3D which went from ~12,000lb to ~17,000lb per engine which gave this mod its impetus.

The glove panels screwed to the B707-100 wings to reprofile them for the higher power JT3D-3B engines and hence higher cruise speeds were a PITA for the apprentices who had to screw them onto the wings. Every screw had to be measured lest you screw an over length one in and break the fuel tank seal with resultant tank entry etc, etc.

[evansb]

Beauty defined.

[Airbanda]

The ventral fin was fitted when the B707-100 had the fan engines fitted to make them B707-120 series. They also made the aircraft "geometry limited" as a bonus reducing some margins for the Vr and Vlo speeds. It had nothing to do with the British ARB. There are many other sins to be laid at their door but not this.

Story more complex than that I think. There's a thread on subject here:

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/36273...fin-story.html

There are pictures on net of 320 series aircraft, including the P&W fan engined 320B series, both with and without the ventral fin. Wikipedia is not a source but the pictures there, including one of last commercially operated 707, illustrate the point pretty well.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Thanks for the details and corrections, chaps, Urban Myths do seem to be easier to recall than mathematical facts when One Is A Certain Age !

Interesting tho'.

I also recall a certain 707 Training Captain testing a students' ability to deal with a runaway stabiliser, he ran the trim "aircraft nose down" and the aircraft obeyed with alacrity. The student promptly called "Runaway Stabiliser" then physically stopped the trim wheel by hand and called for the console switches to be cut off, and the circuit breaker on the overhead panel to be pulled. All completed expeditiously and correctly as per the check list procedure. Trouble was - the waters off the South Coast were rapidly growing bigger in the windscreen, so the drill was reversed, except .... whilst attempting to pull out of the now rapid dive the G force was such that the F/Eng. couldn't get his hand up high enough to re-set the circuit breaker on the overhead panel.

Eventually, with Captain and co-pilot both pulling back, and the F/eng. assisting by holding both control columns with one hand on each side, and bracing his feet on the bottom of the instrument panel in some manner, (I was told) they pulled out close enough to the surface of the sea to enure that the check list was amended to remove the command to pull the circuit breaker.

It's easy to say that they should have relieved the G force by pushing further forward, altitude was in short supply - and you weren't there !

[megan]

This is about the best story of the evolution I've come across

Because only a relatively small number of the 707s would be built with the Conway, provision was made for a replacement engine to be flown out on a scheduled passenger flight to an airplane grounded with engine problems at a distant airport, enabling the latter airplane to return to its home base in London. This was achieved through the use of a special streamlined pod and pylori that could be quickly attached to the wing inboard of the number 2 (port inner) engine. Boeing’s Brien Wygle and FAA (Federal Aviation Agency) pilot Sliff flew the pod certification flight with N31241 (G-APFB) on November 10, 1959; G—APFH was flown with a pod on its delivery flight to Prestwick, Scotland, in july 1960. On February 12, 1960, the Model 707-400 Series was awarded FAA certification; however, a protracted and contentious delay arose from the differing certification requirements of the FAA and the British Air Registration Board (ARB). The ARB's concerns were the potential for stall during takeoff through an excessive angle of rotation—which had caused two Comet 1 crashes—and the 707’s Dutch roll characteristics, that had led to three training accidents in 1959, with fatal results in the case of American Airlines and Braniff international Airways (Airways, October 2009).

Accordingly, the ARB required a demonstration of the aircraft's ability to unstick at a nose—high attitude, at various speeds. Nowadays a normal part of the flight testing for any new type, VMU (velocity maximum unstick) takeoffs were conducted at Edwards Air Force Base, California, during November 1959, using BOAC’s first 707. These tests showed that the 707 would only unstick after the nose was lowered. A modification resulting from these tests saw a 39in (lm)-deep ventral tail fin added to alleviate the possibility of a premature rotation—and also improve the airplane’s longitudinal stability.

The low-speed stability fix took much longer, and included an addition of 35in (89cm) to the top of the vertical stabilizer and duplication of the yaw damper, during the takeoff/climb and approach/landing phases. To counter additional engine thrust, a modification of the rudder control system—allowing the rudder to be fully powered throughout its whole range of movement (not only the first 15 degrees) - had already been incorporated on the Dash 300 and Dash 400 models.

Thus G—APFB was modified at the Boeing plant, and after a final series of test flights by the ARB’s chief test pilot David P Davies (of Handling the Big Jets fame)—who had personally insisted on the changes—British certification was awarded on April 28, 1960.

Ivor Lusty,the airline’s plant representative at Renton, ‘accepted' G-APFD in an 'informal ceremony' on April27, and following transfer of title (the official delivery) the next day, the 707 was flown nonstop to London, arriving on April 29. Captain T B (Tom) Stoney, BOAC's 707 flight manager, was in command for the 4,900mi (7,885km), 9hr 44min flight.

The taller vertical stabilizer became a standard feature of the entire 707/720/KC-135 series. All 707-300/-400 series also had the ventral fin, as well as Dash 100s with Pratt & Whitney JT3C turbojets and 15 low gross weight Dash 300Bs (with the ]T3D turbofan), which had a 17 flaps takeoff setting. Because they had a full set of leading edge flaps, 14 flaps for takeoff, a '’series’ yaw damper, improved stall warning (stick shaker) operation, and aerodynamic upgrades to the wing, the Dash 300B ’Advanced’ and ’Advanced-Heavy', and -300C did not require the ventral fin. A smaller (13in/33cm) ventral fin was fitted to Dash 100Bs (with turbofans) and 720s to prevent damage in over-rotation, as the stick shaker did not activate early enough.

Boeing supplied retrofit kits without charge to operators that had already had taken delivery of 707s, an action that helped cement the manufacturers reputation in airline circles.

https://rentonwa.gov/uploadedFiles/L...20combined.pdf