Vulcan and money
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I'd be inclined to think the same but reading comments on enthusiast sites, there are lots of younger people too who think the same way. It doesn't make sense when few of them have ever seen a really spirited Vulcan display, so I can only assume it's a sort of "word of mouth" thing that has convinced them that the display could be far more flamboyant. I have to say that I'm starting to think that the display is rather pointless when so much of it is very distant.
I guess it matters not - whatever we might think, we know from experience that the Vulcan people won't be taking any notice!
I guess it matters not - whatever we might think, we know from experience that the Vulcan people won't be taking any notice!
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As a comparison ... for a few years I worked at Ostend Airport and roads would be closed such a big event was the air show there, and I hasten to add the year I refer to was the year before the "nasty" at the Ostend air show that caused air shows to become illegal in Belgium.
Well out of our offices window the former Chief Pilot of Air America "Pete Parker" and myself climbed on to the roof of the cargo building, Ostend Airport is literally on the beach so anything coming in low across the sea, concealed by the sand dunes, one couldn't see, I hasten to add that Pete had been taught to fly by his mother whilst his father stood on the wings and he had held a commercial pilot's licence from the age of 16 until he was forced to retire from flying aged 65.
Well first it was the Red Arrows in over the sands dunes but when the BBMF did the same dear old Pete (RIP) was in his element with the Spitfire, the Hurricane and the Lanc, I couldn't possibly repeat his language here but he enjoyed the show
Now what can be said for a (civilian) Vulcan display?
Well out of our offices window the former Chief Pilot of Air America "Pete Parker" and myself climbed on to the roof of the cargo building, Ostend Airport is literally on the beach so anything coming in low across the sea, concealed by the sand dunes, one couldn't see, I hasten to add that Pete had been taught to fly by his mother whilst his father stood on the wings and he had held a commercial pilot's licence from the age of 16 until he was forced to retire from flying aged 65.
Well first it was the Red Arrows in over the sands dunes but when the BBMF did the same dear old Pete (RIP) was in his element with the Spitfire, the Hurricane and the Lanc, I couldn't possibly repeat his language here but he enjoyed the show
Now what can be said for a (civilian) Vulcan display?
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I don't think anything has to be said - the Vulcan's appearance speaks for itself. It attracts a very big audience. For example, last week's arrival at Waddington saw the WAVE car park filled to capacity (it was closed off) with people waiting for more than two hours just to see the Vulcan land. I doubt if more than a handful of people would even bother to go see the BBMF arrive. You can go to Finningley any day that the Vulcan is flying and the surrounding road is crammed with cars and spectators. That's not a biased view either (I think the BBMF aircraft are great too) it's just reality.
I find myself agreeing with those who question if the money, time and effort that is spent on the Vulcan couldn't be better used on other things, such as covered housings for the VC10, Comet, Britannia etc at Duxford.
Without action being taken to provide protection the large British built civil airliners currently standing outside in the open will rot away and have to be scrapped. To lose this part of our aviation heritage would be a far greater loss than being deprived of a 5-10 minutes display by the Vulcan.
It does seem that the Vulcan is unable to generate anything like enough money to keep it flying from its show appearances and requires lottery funding and large donations to continue. If it really is able to draw in thousands of additional spectators to events (something I doubt) then I can only assume that they are selling it too cheaply.
An iconic aircraft for sure, but as a display aircraft it seems it doesn't work commercially.
Without action being taken to provide protection the large British built civil airliners currently standing outside in the open will rot away and have to be scrapped. To lose this part of our aviation heritage would be a far greater loss than being deprived of a 5-10 minutes display by the Vulcan.
It does seem that the Vulcan is unable to generate anything like enough money to keep it flying from its show appearances and requires lottery funding and large donations to continue. If it really is able to draw in thousands of additional spectators to events (something I doubt) then I can only assume that they are selling it too cheaply.
An iconic aircraft for sure, but as a display aircraft it seems it doesn't work commercially.
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I agree that support should be given to get aircraft under cover, but it's not an "either or" situation. It's not as if the donations for XH558 can somehow be diverted to something else.
True, the Vulcan doesn't seem to generate enough revenue from air display bookings, but it survives through other support of course. This is why I raised the issue of Farnborough - I agree with you that it is being "sold too cheaply" in some respects. I was amazed to see that the Vulcan flew not one but two validation displays at Farnborough today. Both for private eyes only despite being paid for by donations, not Farnborough. I don't know who is worse - Farnborough for expecting two full displays for free, or the Vulcan people for accepting this. It's quite laughable how a validation display is needed just because of their rules - change the damned rules then and stop wasting people's money?!
True, the Vulcan doesn't seem to generate enough revenue from air display bookings, but it survives through other support of course. This is why I raised the issue of Farnborough - I agree with you that it is being "sold too cheaply" in some respects. I was amazed to see that the Vulcan flew not one but two validation displays at Farnborough today. Both for private eyes only despite being paid for by donations, not Farnborough. I don't know who is worse - Farnborough for expecting two full displays for free, or the Vulcan people for accepting this. It's quite laughable how a validation display is needed just because of their rules - change the damned rules then and stop wasting people's money?!
It's quite laughable how a validation display is needed just because of their rules - change the damned rules then and stop wasting people's money?!
If the Vulcan did two, it's likely that one will have been the full routine and the other the flat version to be used with a low cloud base.
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Two were needed so that two crews could be validated - as if the whole notion wasn't already ludicrous enough.
Don't need to Google Derry - that's precisely the kind of nonsense that has got us into this situation in the first place. All that needs to be done is to set-out precise rules (and preferably rules that aren't as ridiculous as the ones we currently have), and then expect pilots to stick to them. What's the point of a validation display if the public appearance isn't precisely the same? The whole idea is ridiculous, because no matter how many validations are flown, there's no guarantee that the actual display will match it.
But regardless of Farnborough's silly rules, they obviously shouldn't apply to an aircraft that requires so much public funding. It wouldn't have hurt Farnborough's "experts" to simply go watch a display somewhere else and make a validation judgement on that. Or just grow-up and accept that the Vulcan crews know what they're doing and don't need to be second-guessed by anyone.
Either way, it's unfair to expect fuel, fatigue and engine life to be wasted on two displays that are patently unnecessary. It's even more offensive to not even pay for them. If Farnborough wants to impose rules then they should expect to pay for them.
Can't help feeling that Farnborough has a slightly over-inflated option of itself. Obviously it was once a hugely important world event, but maybe they ought to accept that business and commercialism aside, the actual flying display barely raises an eyebrow now.They ought to be grateful that they've got the Vulcan and be using some of their huge revenue to pay for it, not just some of it.
Don't need to Google Derry - that's precisely the kind of nonsense that has got us into this situation in the first place. All that needs to be done is to set-out precise rules (and preferably rules that aren't as ridiculous as the ones we currently have), and then expect pilots to stick to them. What's the point of a validation display if the public appearance isn't precisely the same? The whole idea is ridiculous, because no matter how many validations are flown, there's no guarantee that the actual display will match it.
But regardless of Farnborough's silly rules, they obviously shouldn't apply to an aircraft that requires so much public funding. It wouldn't have hurt Farnborough's "experts" to simply go watch a display somewhere else and make a validation judgement on that. Or just grow-up and accept that the Vulcan crews know what they're doing and don't need to be second-guessed by anyone.
Either way, it's unfair to expect fuel, fatigue and engine life to be wasted on two displays that are patently unnecessary. It's even more offensive to not even pay for them. If Farnborough wants to impose rules then they should expect to pay for them.
Can't help feeling that Farnborough has a slightly over-inflated option of itself. Obviously it was once a hugely important world event, but maybe they ought to accept that business and commercialism aside, the actual flying display barely raises an eyebrow now.They ought to be grateful that they've got the Vulcan and be using some of their huge revenue to pay for it, not just some of it.
Farnborough is primarily a sales exhibition where aviation companies carry out business and make money for their companies, it is only an 'air display' because customers who might buy an aeroplane like to see their purchases being shown off in the air. For these companies the display validation costs are a small price to pay for the potential money they will earn from sales.
It would seem logical to think that someone in the Vulcan to the Sky circus has carried out an exercise to see whether the costs incurred by being at Farnborough bring in revenue greater than the outlay for being there. If they haven't then that is their problem.
I very much doubt that the Vulcans presence brings in any additional spectators/business persons to Farnborough so why would the organisers make it a special case on display validation, or subsidise the validations, for it to be there?
If it loses money by being there, then why send it there?
It would seem logical to think that someone in the Vulcan to the Sky circus has carried out an exercise to see whether the costs incurred by being at Farnborough bring in revenue greater than the outlay for being there. If they haven't then that is their problem.
I very much doubt that the Vulcans presence brings in any additional spectators/business persons to Farnborough so why would the organisers make it a special case on display validation, or subsidise the validations, for it to be there?
If it loses money by being there, then why send it there?
I very much doubt that the Vulcans presence brings in any additional spectators/business persons to Farnborough so why would the organisers make it a special case on display validation, or subsidise the validations, for it to be there?
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One assumes that it does bring in lots of spectators, but essentially the enthusiast type, not industry people. I must say I also have to wonder whether there is any monetary gain in sending the Vulcan there. I suppose the Vulcan people know but like everything they do, they don't tell us!
With all the fuss over a second Lanc (A REAL PLANE) coming to he
UK this year would not it be better to spend/collect any cash to get JUST JANE (NX 611) flying. I think this would be a real crowd puller ???
:
UK this year would not it be better to spend/collect any cash to get JUST JANE (NX 611) flying. I think this would be a real crowd puller ???
:
What's the point of a validation display if the public appearance isn't precisely the same? The whole idea is ridiculous, because no matter how many validations are flown, there's no guarantee that the actual display will match it.
Yes of course the validation flight doesn't guarantee that the actual display will match, how could it?
But the potential sanctions for a non-conforming display are fairly severe. The T&Cs that all displaying pilots sign up to allow the Display Director to order a pilot to land immediately after an infringement and, if deemed necessary, to cancel the aircraft's display on subsequent days.
That aside, I'm very tempted to go and look over the fence one day next week (I've worked enough trade days at Farnborough in the past not to want to endure any as a visitor). I've yet to see XH558 display, and I don't particularly mind if it doesn't perform any daring manoeuvres - I've seen plenty of Vulcan displays over the last 40-odd years and I'd be happy just to see the old girl take off, fly a couple of circuits and land again.
If that puts me in the minority, I don't care.
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as a display aircraft it seems it doesn't work commercially.
Whilst the Tin Triangle is, no doubt, a very impressive beast, it's also a huge money-pit....unfortunately, it shares the same problem as most Historic Airliners.
There's no way to sell flight-experiences to the Richard Bransons of this world, or the sort of wealthy adventurer who has booked one of R.B's space-flights.
Therefore, logically, every single Vulcan flight is subsidised
I really doubt if the few fat-cats who have their snouts in the trough of "vulcan enterprises" actually make much of a dent in the ginormous overall budget......whilst it's a substantial remuneration for an individual (irrespective of their questionable business acumen and value for money),- it's nowt compared with, say, the fuel bill.
AFAIK, it's still free of charge to look up into the sky, therefore the validation flights are free to watch to all-comers who can find a suitable vantage-point.
Of course, it does help to know when the flights are taking place- I guess they are not well publicised for fear of diluting the paying punter stream at the actual display.
Try charging the full cost of a display and it would sit idle most of the season.
whilst the custodians can keep it on the display circuit,they can justify their job and remuneration.
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But as you say Dave, how could an actual display ever match a validation flight? Therefore, it's pointless. Seems very simple to me - if Farnborough expects two validation flights then they pay for them. I suspect part of the issue is that the Vulcan people are actually happy to meet Farnborough's requirements because they seem to be particularly fond of attending the show. Not sure why - perhaps they perceive it as a good revenue-raising event? It would be nice to know but, as ever...
Steve, I think you may well be right with some of the comments you made there
It's a strange business. It's a real joy that the Vulcan is still flying but the events that surround it really do leave, shall we say, a nasty taste.
Steve, I think you may well be right with some of the comments you made there
It's a strange business. It's a real joy that the Vulcan is still flying but the events that surround it really do leave, shall we say, a nasty taste.
I suspect part of the issue is that the Vulcan people are actually happy to meet Farnborough's requirements because they seem to be particularly fond of attending the show. Not sure why - perhaps they perceive it as a good revenue-raising event? It would be nice to know but, as ever...
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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WH904
I am quite a fan of many of your posts on other topics but I think you may be a tad out of your depth when it comes to air displays and validation of same.
Just to mention one of many points that make validation flights necessary, pilots need to see the actual/best visual cues on the ground to sort out their speed and height gates (to say nothing of turn rate issues) especially when the surrounding area has complex height and avoid areas. The validation flights are really practice opportunities for the pilots - during which the display supervisors also have an opportunity to check that the display flown is in accordance with the brief submitted in writing by the pilot in the weeks before the show.
Farnborough specifically is a tricky area in which to fly a display and even the Red Arrows do a validation flight there to help their leader get himself sorted.
In my opinion your comments regarding Farnborough's rules do not reflect what it is like to fly a display there.
JF
I am quite a fan of many of your posts on other topics but I think you may be a tad out of your depth when it comes to air displays and validation of same.
Just to mention one of many points that make validation flights necessary, pilots need to see the actual/best visual cues on the ground to sort out their speed and height gates (to say nothing of turn rate issues) especially when the surrounding area has complex height and avoid areas. The validation flights are really practice opportunities for the pilots - during which the display supervisors also have an opportunity to check that the display flown is in accordance with the brief submitted in writing by the pilot in the weeks before the show.
Farnborough specifically is a tricky area in which to fly a display and even the Red Arrows do a validation flight there to help their leader get himself sorted.
In my opinion your comments regarding Farnborough's rules do not reflect what it is like to fly a display there.
JF
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Well as I said before, I'm not questioning the validity of validation displays (couldn't resist the pun), it's the case of XH558 that seems absurd. Farnborough know how cash-sensitive the project is, so if they must have a validation flight then so be it, but surely they should be paying for it. If not, then no display at all?
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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If you read my post I hope you will see that I believe the validation routines benefit the pilots not the show organisers.
JF
If you read my post I hope you will see that I believe the validation routines benefit the pilots not the show organisers.
JF