XH558 gone tech
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XH558's appearance at Leuchars this weekend has been cancelled because of the fuel leak problem. One wonders whether it's worth the effort to get the aircraft back in the air for just one more display date, or whether it might be better to tuck her up for the winter and wait for 2014?
Wonder just how many flying hours are actually left on the airframe before the much-discussed modification programme is needed? Maybe they could scrape another (small) display season in without even doing it?
Wonder just how many flying hours are actually left on the airframe before the much-discussed modification programme is needed? Maybe they could scrape another (small) display season in without even doing it?
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I've heard the points made by Shaggy many, many times and I'm afraid I just don't accept them. A Sea Vixen that flies in Red Bull colours is pointless. Yes, Red Bull enables the aircraft to fly, but why waste money (and fatigue hours) on flying the Vixen if it doesn't look like a Vixen? It might as well be any random cheap jet that happens to be available. I mean, what is the point of flying it if it's dressed-up like a tart?
If de Havilland had painted one up in a made-up shceme to go sell them to foriegn air forces, would that be OK?
When we aquired our Chipmunk it was navy blue with a creme stripe. The first time we re-painted it we considered an 'authentic' scheme but reasoned there are loads of Chippies in museums in authentic schemes. So we painted it bright red with a blue stripe.
Now, it's gloss black with a white stripe, and looks just superb (a more attractive scheme than the BBMF one). Thing is, it's been a delight to fly for well over 30 years no matter what bleedin' colour it was!
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But as I said, it depends on your point of view. It's like the Chipmunk you mention - I'm sure you're happy with it but I (and countless others) would think "what a waste" and be wishing it wore its "proper" colours. You don't like the BBMF Chipmunk, whereas I think it's the most interesting machine they have on their fleet now! Looks magnificent! 
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Actually I DO like the BBMF Chippy. I like ALL Chippies, even that bright yellow one with the massive shark's teeth on the cowlings!
The colour don't matter. The aeroplane does.
The colour don't matter. The aeroplane does.
If some people are obsessed with "authentic" colours have you complained to the RAF about a Tucano flying about in a WW2 North African Theatre paint scheme with ficticious squadron codes "RAF"!
Shouldn't all RAF Tucanos be black (or possibly red/white/grey)?
Shouldn't all RAF Tucanos be black (or possibly red/white/grey)?
If some people are obsessed with "authentic" colours have you complained to the RAF about a Tucano flying about in a WW2 North African Theatre paint scheme with ficticious squadron codes "RAF"!
Looks dreadful, though.
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As Dave says, it's more a case of accepting that if the RAF (or whoever) opt to paint an aircraft in a certain scheme then so be it, even if it does look rather odd. It's in service and that's how it looks, good or bad. The point is that a lot of us wholeheartedly appreciate seeing aircraft restored either to static or flying condition, but restorations often seem to stop short of fully replicating the colour scheme and markings that the aircraft wore whilst in service. Consequently, to a lot of us, they just look silly and it's very disappointing that they just don't look as they did.
Okay, some people simply like to see the aeroplane and don't really care what paint is applied to it, but the same people often don't seem to grasp how annoying it is to the rest of us, who just wish a little more attention to detail could have been made. Like I said, if such issues don't matter to you, then why care if an aircraft flies or just sits in a museum? Surely, if one appreciates how an aircraft looks and sounds in the air, it isn't too much of a stretch to accept that an awful lot of people really do care how an aircraft looks, right down to wearing the right colours and the right markings?
The Vulcan is a bit of an exception in that it did wear its current paint scheme while it was still in RAF ownership, so it's fair to say that its finish is "legit" but at the same time, it doesn't look like any other Vulcan that ever flew. It just looks odd and although it's clearly unreasonable to expect money to be lavished on repainting it, the fact that it doesn't really "look like a Vulcan" is a source of continual frustration for a lot of people - me being one of them!
Okay, some people simply like to see the aeroplane and don't really care what paint is applied to it, but the same people often don't seem to grasp how annoying it is to the rest of us, who just wish a little more attention to detail could have been made. Like I said, if such issues don't matter to you, then why care if an aircraft flies or just sits in a museum? Surely, if one appreciates how an aircraft looks and sounds in the air, it isn't too much of a stretch to accept that an awful lot of people really do care how an aircraft looks, right down to wearing the right colours and the right markings?
The Vulcan is a bit of an exception in that it did wear its current paint scheme while it was still in RAF ownership, so it's fair to say that its finish is "legit" but at the same time, it doesn't look like any other Vulcan that ever flew. It just looks odd and although it's clearly unreasonable to expect money to be lavished on repainting it, the fact that it doesn't really "look like a Vulcan" is a source of continual frustration for a lot of people - me being one of them!
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Okay, some people simply like to see the aeroplane and don't really care what paint is applied to it, but the same people often don't seem to grasp how annoying it is to the rest of us, who just wish a little more attention to detail could have been made
But, I see a solution to your obsession. Any sponsored aeroplane that is in a scheme you don't like, simply approach the owner, and out-bid the sponsorship deal with a deal of your own. That would give you the right to dictate what colour it's painted.
Every aeroplane where a private owner has painted it in a non-RAF scheme, buy the aeroplane from them. You will then have the right to paint it any colour you wish.
What? You don't have the funds to do this? Then stop bellyaching and accept the reality that he who pays the piper calls the tune!
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Cuefaye I don't know what you're referring to? G-HUNT?
Shaggy, I'm not "bellyaching", I'm expressing a view. It's a forum. You can make the assertion that dubious paint schemes have simply been "painted that way" by the owners but I've been around long enough to know that it's almost always because the owner doesn't really care about such things, it's that simple.
Obviously, it goes without saying that you can do what you like with your Chipmunk, that's a rather pointless comment. Likewise, suggesting I buy aircraft to paint them is just childish, so perhaps we can end our exchange here.
Moving on, I see that the people at Kemble have painted their Canberra in a beautiful silver paint scheme, spoiled only by the bullet fairing on the fin. But already there are people complaining that the aircraft's last operational paint scheme has been overpainted:-
FighterControl ? Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast ? View topic - Canberra PR9 XH134 Flies Again
I guess everyone has a different view! Personally, I think returning the aircraft to its first paint scheme is quite refreshing. I'm not quite so sure about painting their two Hunters similarly, but in fairness to them, they say they have made proper records of the aircraft's paint schemes so they can return them to a "proper" finish when they've finished seeking sponsorship. Seems fair enough although if the Canberra or Hunters end-up like billboards it'll be the Red Bull Vixen fiasco all over again
Shaggy, I'm not "bellyaching", I'm expressing a view. It's a forum. You can make the assertion that dubious paint schemes have simply been "painted that way" by the owners but I've been around long enough to know that it's almost always because the owner doesn't really care about such things, it's that simple.
Obviously, it goes without saying that you can do what you like with your Chipmunk, that's a rather pointless comment. Likewise, suggesting I buy aircraft to paint them is just childish, so perhaps we can end our exchange here.
Moving on, I see that the people at Kemble have painted their Canberra in a beautiful silver paint scheme, spoiled only by the bullet fairing on the fin. But already there are people complaining that the aircraft's last operational paint scheme has been overpainted:-
FighterControl ? Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast ? View topic - Canberra PR9 XH134 Flies Again
I guess everyone has a different view! Personally, I think returning the aircraft to its first paint scheme is quite refreshing. I'm not quite so sure about painting their two Hunters similarly, but in fairness to them, they say they have made proper records of the aircraft's paint schemes so they can return them to a "proper" finish when they've finished seeking sponsorship. Seems fair enough although if the Canberra or Hunters end-up like billboards it'll be the Red Bull Vixen fiasco all over again
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Not childish, WH (though it's ironic you should use that word), just pointing you at reality, which you seem to be detached from. If you think aeroplanes enjoy particular scemes because 'the owner doesn't care about such things' I wonder what planet you are from.
You don't make a major descision like a colour scheme by tossing a coin - there's a reason for it. Usually, it's either that that's how the owner likes it having thought about it a lot and photo-shopped and drawn alternatives to see how they will look, or that's how his sponsor demands it and without the sponsor there's no flying aeroplane.
If you don't see that, and continue to think colour schemes just happen to be what they are because the owner doesn't give a damn and had some leftover paint in the shed, or stuck a pin in a paint chart to decide the scheme, then I give up on you.
You don't make a major descision like a colour scheme by tossing a coin - there's a reason for it. Usually, it's either that that's how the owner likes it having thought about it a lot and photo-shopped and drawn alternatives to see how they will look, or that's how his sponsor demands it and without the sponsor there's no flying aeroplane.
If you don't see that, and continue to think colour schemes just happen to be what they are because the owner doesn't give a damn and had some leftover paint in the shed, or stuck a pin in a paint chart to decide the scheme, then I give up on you.
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 4th Sep 2013 at 20:58.
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then I give up on you
Glad to hear it. I don't "think" colour schemes are often as they are, I know, because I ask. If you knew much about the subject, you'd probably be quite surprised at how some aircraft come to wear the paint schemes that they do.
Glad to hear it. I don't "think" colour schemes are often as they are, I know, because I ask. If you knew much about the subject, you'd probably be quite surprised at how some aircraft come to wear the paint schemes that they do.
The railway preservation world latched on to this years ago. They soon realised that if you painted a face on the front of any old loco and called it Thomas then the punters would come along with their kids, who in any case had never seen a steam loco before, authentic or not.
The grumpy old real-ale swilling blokes who haunt these places moaned but they were outnumbered by the family groups who were providing the finance to keep the thing running.
Same principle with aircraft - I couldnt care less if they painted 558 sky blue pink if it meant it kept flying.
Having said that it would look ace in anti-flash white though - as did all the Vs
http://itdoesnthavetoberight.files.w...can_bomber.jpg
The grumpy old real-ale swilling blokes who haunt these places moaned but they were outnumbered by the family groups who were providing the finance to keep the thing running.
Same principle with aircraft - I couldnt care less if they painted 558 sky blue pink if it meant it kept flying.
Having said that it would look ace in anti-flash white though - as did all the Vs
http://itdoesnthavetoberight.files.w...can_bomber.jpg
Talking of ''sounds'', I popped down to watch the night display at Bournemouth on Friday. I could hardly hear the delicious sound of the RR Spitfire because they were blasting out Land of Hope and Glory over the sound system. 
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Don't get me started on that one!
One recalls the latter days of the RAF's Vulcan performances, when XH558 used to turn-up to display accompanied by the theme from "Harry's Game" every time. The temptation to stick one's foot through the tape recorder was always almost irresistible
One recalls the latter days of the RAF's Vulcan performances, when XH558 used to turn-up to display accompanied by the theme from "Harry's Game" every time. The temptation to stick one's foot through the tape recorder was always almost irresistible
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Tankertrashnav, terrible generalisation of heritage railway folk there. Those 'grumpy old real ale swilling blokes' are probably train spotters who come along to the railway to rivet-count and wouldn't know where to start if you gave them a big 9F to light up, or a complex signal box to work.
The folk who spent years restoring that railway, and the locomotives, and who now run it, have to be a bit more hard-headed than them or their railway wouldn't survive. I'm steam loco crew on one such railway and a signaller on another and though I'd prefer not to have engines with plastic faces, historic tank engines painted blue with yellow-painted motion, and worst of all one engine I drove, an ex-Manchester Ship Canal unique tank engine, had had its tanks physically cut and altered to look like Thomas!
However, we live in the real world. If we are to enjoy driving and firing steam locomotives, and operating signal boxes on our railways we need to attract funds. So when we run a 'Thomas' or a 'Peppa Pig' event and the trains are packed and the platforms crowded with kids, parents, and grand parents it makes me smile at the thought of all that cash coming into the railway's coffers! And all those new people getting exposed to the fascination of a steam railway!
I suspect WH904 wouldn't see it that way! Quite where he thinks our income would come from if we stayed 'strictly authentic' I really don't know. The grumpy old blokes sure wouldn't keep us afloat financially!
The folk who spent years restoring that railway, and the locomotives, and who now run it, have to be a bit more hard-headed than them or their railway wouldn't survive. I'm steam loco crew on one such railway and a signaller on another and though I'd prefer not to have engines with plastic faces, historic tank engines painted blue with yellow-painted motion, and worst of all one engine I drove, an ex-Manchester Ship Canal unique tank engine, had had its tanks physically cut and altered to look like Thomas!
However, we live in the real world. If we are to enjoy driving and firing steam locomotives, and operating signal boxes on our railways we need to attract funds. So when we run a 'Thomas' or a 'Peppa Pig' event and the trains are packed and the platforms crowded with kids, parents, and grand parents it makes me smile at the thought of all that cash coming into the railway's coffers! And all those new people getting exposed to the fascination of a steam railway!
I suspect WH904 wouldn't see it that way! Quite where he thinks our income would come from if we stayed 'strictly authentic' I really don't know. The grumpy old blokes sure wouldn't keep us afloat financially!
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 5th Sep 2013 at 07:54.
Let's hope some of the moaners on here don't get quite as obsessed as some railway "fans".
When Pete Waterman owned Flying Scotsman he had it repainted from LNER green to BR Green - because that is how he remembered it running in revenue service.
He started to get death threats demaning he repaint it back. As a result - he sold it.
When Pete Waterman owned Flying Scotsman he had it repainted from LNER green to BR Green - because that is how he remembered it running in revenue service.
He started to get death threats demaning he repaint it back. As a result - he sold it.
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Speaking of Rolls Royce Spitfires, when they conclude the restoration of RM689, I'd love to see it in the beautiful two-tone blue civvie scheme it wore in the 1960s.
Spencer Flack's Hunter, Spitfire and Sea Fury looked superb in the red "house" scheme.
Spencer Flack's Hunter, Spitfire and Sea Fury looked superb in the red "house" scheme.
Tankertrashnav, terrible generalisation of heritage railway folk there. Those 'grumpy old real ale swilling blokes' are probably train spotters who come along to the railway to rivet-count and wouldn't know where to start if you gave them a big 9F to light up, or a complex signal box to work.