Fox Tor Mires Future Salvage Dig...
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Fox Tor Mires Future Salvage Dig...
Hi...
It's been some time since the WFP started collecting material to build a replica Whirlwind, but after 2 years we are at last making good progress with our CAD Whirlwind.
We've started to get around to the people who have or know of any remaining parts of wreckage that we can measure, photograph, trace or scan in order to fill in areas that we are lacking information from any of the surviving drawings or photos that we now have...
We're also looking into viable crash sites that may be worth investigating, with a view to maybe retrieving any parts that they might contain.
One of which is the Fox Tor Mires site on Dartmoor, where both P6975 & P6978 Whirlwinds crashed on 29th December 1940
We're asking for information on the actual site position so we may visit and make an appraisal for a possible future dig...
Please PM me with any info that might help us narrow the search...
Best regards
Stuart Hawkins
Whirlwindfighterproject.org
It's been some time since the WFP started collecting material to build a replica Whirlwind, but after 2 years we are at last making good progress with our CAD Whirlwind.
We've started to get around to the people who have or know of any remaining parts of wreckage that we can measure, photograph, trace or scan in order to fill in areas that we are lacking information from any of the surviving drawings or photos that we now have...
We're also looking into viable crash sites that may be worth investigating, with a view to maybe retrieving any parts that they might contain.
One of which is the Fox Tor Mires site on Dartmoor, where both P6975 & P6978 Whirlwinds crashed on 29th December 1940
We're asking for information on the actual site position so we may visit and make an appraisal for a possible future dig...
Please PM me with any info that might help us narrow the search...
Best regards
Stuart Hawkins
Whirlwindfighterproject.org
Stuart,
I just HAD to look up Fox Tor Mires since I had never heard of it, although I had spent some of my youth tramping through similar areas of north Dartmoor.
This site (Battle of Britain London Monument - F/Lt. W O L Smith) says the collision occurred near Bovey Tracey, a long way from Fox Tor.
Good luck with your search. I have always thought that the Whirlwind was a great-looking aircraft. It's a shame it was let down by its engines. Imagine what a Whirlwind with Merlins would have been like!
I just HAD to look up Fox Tor Mires since I had never heard of it, although I had spent some of my youth tramping through similar areas of north Dartmoor.
This site (Battle of Britain London Monument - F/Lt. W O L Smith) says the collision occurred near Bovey Tracey, a long way from Fox Tor.
Good luck with your search. I have always thought that the Whirlwind was a great-looking aircraft. It's a shame it was let down by its engines. Imagine what a Whirlwind with Merlins would have been like!
Last edited by India Four Two; 20th Jun 2013 at 03:17.
It seems strange that there is confusion over the location(s) where the two aircraft came down - given that the bodies of both pilots were recovered, albeit several weeks after the accident, and are buried at Exeter:
263 Squadron Casualties - Westland Whirlwind Fighter
(last two entries)
263 Squadron Casualties - Westland Whirlwind Fighter
(last two entries)
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The only source for the proposed Bovey Tracy location was Herbert Kitchener, the 3rd pilot, but since all the pilots were uncertain of their exact whereabouts and could only have been able to give a very rough estimate of the crash location.
Both death certificates say "Dead body found Ninth March 1941 Dartmoor Lydford R.D." i.e. 10 weeks after the crash.
Part of the wreckage and the bodies were recovered by a crew from 67MU's Tavistock outpost, but that is all that can be found concerning the recovery.
The Fox tor mires crash site reference was due to a sheperd, who recalled two aircraft colliding and the RAF that arrived said they were secret aircraft...
Stu...
Both death certificates say "Dead body found Ninth March 1941 Dartmoor Lydford R.D." i.e. 10 weeks after the crash.
Part of the wreckage and the bodies were recovered by a crew from 67MU's Tavistock outpost, but that is all that can be found concerning the recovery.
The Fox tor mires crash site reference was due to a sheperd, who recalled two aircraft colliding and the RAF that arrived said they were secret aircraft...
Stu...
Last edited by Mr BlueSky; 20th Jun 2013 at 07:43.
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Our CAD Whirlwind is coming along very nicely... 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/al7i2o1oy...es/FA-52.jpg?m
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/al7i2o1oy...es/FA-52.jpg?m
Dave,
Thanks for the link to the film. I noticed one of the pilots limping along to go flying in a plaster cast (1:40)!
Stu,
Your great CAD image emphasizes a feature of the Whirlwind that I have always felt looks odd. The rear fuselage has little or no taper. Was there some special aerodynamic or structural reason for that?
Thanks for the link to the film. I noticed one of the pilots limping along to go flying in a plaster cast (1:40)!
Stu,
Your great CAD image emphasizes a feature of the Whirlwind that I have always felt looks odd. The rear fuselage has little or no taper. Was there some special aerodynamic or structural reason for that?
Last edited by India Four Two; 21st Jun 2013 at 07:20. Reason: speling
The reason was not aerodynamic.
The original design utilised a state-of-art magnesium monocoque fuselage and it was easier to build as a tube.
I think................
The original design utilised a state-of-art magnesium monocoque fuselage and it was easier to build as a tube.
I think................
LM,
Perhaps Mr. Petter was practicing for the time when he had to design two stacked tubes?
Perhaps Mr. Petter was practicing for the time when he had to design two stacked tubes?
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Your both right, Petter wanted to make the fuselage as slim as could possibly be, the whole cockpit area is slimmer than the nacelles - aerodynamic in order to cut down on drag...
The rear fuselage being thicker and lighter made from magnesium meant it didn't need a shed load of internal structure to make it rigid, take a butchers at a Spitfire one...
We did have a problem with section 10 (Where the cockpit ends and the rear fuselage starts ) in that we didn't have any info or drawings for the blinking thing, but delving into the material we had from the AugustaWestland archive (Thanks to Dave Gibbings...) we came across a drawing showing all the aircrafts main section units and sub assemblies and there, very faintly mind you, was a dotted line for the section 10 frame, sweet... 
All good fun...
The rear fuselage being thicker and lighter made from magnesium meant it didn't need a shed load of internal structure to make it rigid, take a butchers at a Spitfire one...
We did have a problem with section 10 (Where the cockpit ends and the rear fuselage starts ) in that we didn't have any info or drawings for the blinking thing, but delving into the material we had from the AugustaWestland archive (Thanks to Dave Gibbings...
) we came across a drawing showing all the aircrafts main section units and sub assemblies and there, very faintly mind you, was a dotted line for the section 10 frame, sweet... All good fun...
Quote
The rear fuselage has little or no taper. Was there some special aerodynamic or structural reason for that?
That's only in side view and IMO there'd be a bending stress case for that.
It had plenty of taper in plan view so no aerodynamic worries - and in fact the deepness in side elevation would add a bit of effective fin area.
IIRC it was designed as a single-seat fighter, so it could have a very narrow fuselage therefore, as we saw on that Pathé clip, when bombs had to be carried they were hung externally which must have knocked a good few knots off the speed capability - which was nothing special for the time, despite the complications of using two engines.
The rear fuselage has little or no taper. Was there some special aerodynamic or structural reason for that?
That's only in side view and IMO there'd be a bending stress case for that.
It had plenty of taper in plan view so no aerodynamic worries - and in fact the deepness in side elevation would add a bit of effective fin area.
IIRC it was designed as a single-seat fighter, so it could have a very narrow fuselage therefore, as we saw on that Pathé clip, when bombs had to be carried they were hung externally which must have knocked a good few knots off the speed capability - which was nothing special for the time, despite the complications of using two engines.
Last edited by Allan Lupton; 21st Jun 2013 at 07:37.
Perhaps Mr. Petter was practicing for the time when he had to design two stacked
tubes?
tubes?
Last edited by Lightning Mate; 21st Jun 2013 at 07:53.
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I also made the Airfix model about c1960/62 also found to be difficult to get the engine necelle's lined up and correct, but in real life the two Merlins should have given the whirlwind some real grunt..why didn't it last well into the fifties?
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Peter R-B
Lancashire
It was the tailplane I had problems with; couldn't get them to 'dry' level.
I tnink the successor to the Whirlwind, the Welkin, had Merlins but I don't know much about its history.
I tnink the successor to the Whirlwind, the Welkin, had Merlins but I don't know much about its history.
Last edited by chevvron; 21st Jun 2013 at 13:07.
I guess also that converting to two Merlins would have been a major job & by then the new aircraft (later Spitfires, Typhoons, Tempests) only needed a single Merlin or other engine & could still carry 4x20mm and bombs & rockets. There was no logic to developing the Whirlwind though it is a beautiful looking aircraft.
I think as a kid I first learned of it from reading a Commando book about a squadron of Whirlwinds being sent to Russia and being modified to have a 40mm gun for tank destroying - wonder if I can find that now.
I think as a kid I first learned of it from reading a Commando book about a squadron of Whirlwinds being sent to Russia and being modified to have a 40mm gun for tank destroying - wonder if I can find that now.
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A bit of googling shows the crash site locations have been discussed at length on another forum, and Mr BlueSky has been part of that, so I think the request here is probably a long shot!
Presuming a member of the public came across wreckage/remains, who might he have contacted first? Might be worth looking for police records or asking the local farmers.
Presuming a member of the public came across wreckage/remains, who might he have contacted first? Might be worth looking for police records or asking the local farmers.