Malaya pre '62?
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Malaya pre '62?
I'm a bit new to all this, but enjoyed the Borneo thread so wondered if any computer-literate octogenarians out there can go back to Malaya (ok, West Malaysia now but not then).
This would be 194/110 Squadrons, KL then Butterworth, challenging wooden-bladed Sycamores and 'proper' Whirlwinds with pistons. They were Whirlwind 4s, and we all had mahogany-coloured right forearms (Willy4arms) from flying with sleeves rolled up (naughty) and an open window.
Here's a bit about that quirky Sycamore ... it had a very small and intimate 5-seat cockpit/cabin, all ahead of the C of G. The left seat was usually turned backward, 3 folding canvas bucket seats across the back. I still remember the distinctive smell of a patrol extracted after 10 days in the jungle and of one which included a tracker dog (German Shepherd/Alsation type) facing rearwards towards its handler, but squirming astern until its backside was parked firmly on the base of my collective lever ... couldn't take hand off lever to push the dog off because we would have fallen out of the sky when the lever dropped, and anyway pushing hard up backside of unsuspecting Alsation not best option in confined area, so had to hold up serious weight for some time until staggered out of clearing and Iban handler realised what I was shouting about.
Happy days
DH
This would be 194/110 Squadrons, KL then Butterworth, challenging wooden-bladed Sycamores and 'proper' Whirlwinds with pistons. They were Whirlwind 4s, and we all had mahogany-coloured right forearms (Willy4arms) from flying with sleeves rolled up (naughty) and an open window.
Here's a bit about that quirky Sycamore ... it had a very small and intimate 5-seat cockpit/cabin, all ahead of the C of G. The left seat was usually turned backward, 3 folding canvas bucket seats across the back. I still remember the distinctive smell of a patrol extracted after 10 days in the jungle and of one which included a tracker dog (German Shepherd/Alsation type) facing rearwards towards its handler, but squirming astern until its backside was parked firmly on the base of my collective lever ... couldn't take hand off lever to push the dog off because we would have fallen out of the sky when the lever dropped, and anyway pushing hard up backside of unsuspecting Alsation not best option in confined area, so had to hold up serious weight for some time until staggered out of clearing and Iban handler realised what I was shouting about.
Happy days
DH
You might find that the RAF Historical Society journals, which cover their seminars and which are available to view through the RAF Museum website, would provide some interesting reading.
Journal No: 25 covers the Helicopter in RAF Service. It starts with a bit of pre history, moves on through the Casualty Evacuation Flight aka 194 Sqn and stops in about 1980 or so. There are papers on rotary wing training, SAR and procurement of aircraft.
If you are of that vintage, you will recognise the names of some of those who presented papers to the seminar. There has been a Thread or several on this site in which Tim Carbis and Chick Wittin-Hayden - now both no longer with us - get mentioned.
In addition there are HMSO published accounts of Operation FIREDOG and also RAF Helicopters by John Dowling - he of Coventry Cathedral fame.
Casting forward there are several recently published books about Borneo and a group of 'old' rotaries called - surprisingly - The Old Rotors!
I hope this gets you started but if you need any other steers and think I can help, please say so.
Old Duffer
Journal No: 25 covers the Helicopter in RAF Service. It starts with a bit of pre history, moves on through the Casualty Evacuation Flight aka 194 Sqn and stops in about 1980 or so. There are papers on rotary wing training, SAR and procurement of aircraft.
If you are of that vintage, you will recognise the names of some of those who presented papers to the seminar. There has been a Thread or several on this site in which Tim Carbis and Chick Wittin-Hayden - now both no longer with us - get mentioned.
In addition there are HMSO published accounts of Operation FIREDOG and also RAF Helicopters by John Dowling - he of Coventry Cathedral fame.
Casting forward there are several recently published books about Borneo and a group of 'old' rotaries called - surprisingly - The Old Rotors!
I hope this gets you started but if you need any other steers and think I can help, please say so.
Old Duffer
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Thank you for that Old Duffer. I have John Dowling's history, and indeed remember him - did he not once famously say there are no manual control loads on the Belvedere that the average pilot cannot handle? ... and then arrive at one Farnborough display in a 70 deg nose up attitude with a load of troops in a heap down the back? Maybe not.
I may be too late to provoke some nostalgic memories on this thread. Can I name names? Boss Frank B, later Cedric S, Taff W, George P, Deke B, Digger B, Tom B, Tom S, Pete L, Paul G ... I'd better stop. Several for sure have passed on and are up there out of ground effect now.
One of the gems of tasks back then was a 2- or 3-day run around the Police Force jungle forts and a few LZs with a civvie doctor (doc Bolton) when he re-visited aboriginal villages where he had set up a small dispensary and a local man - sporadic UHF comms in the valleys and total freedom to complete the task on your own, night stopping at one or other of the fort strips, excellent local curries washed down with Tiger beer. Which reminds me - doing just that on a verandah one evening surrounded by jungle sounds when there was a whispered word "rimau" and I found myself alone. I have never since forgotten the Malay word for tiger. "Satu ampat jalan" worked well for us as "1 4 the road" too.
Time to go.
DH
I may be too late to provoke some nostalgic memories on this thread. Can I name names? Boss Frank B, later Cedric S, Taff W, George P, Deke B, Digger B, Tom B, Tom S, Pete L, Paul G ... I'd better stop. Several for sure have passed on and are up there out of ground effect now.
One of the gems of tasks back then was a 2- or 3-day run around the Police Force jungle forts and a few LZs with a civvie doctor (doc Bolton) when he re-visited aboriginal villages where he had set up a small dispensary and a local man - sporadic UHF comms in the valleys and total freedom to complete the task on your own, night stopping at one or other of the fort strips, excellent local curries washed down with Tiger beer. Which reminds me - doing just that on a verandah one evening surrounded by jungle sounds when there was a whispered word "rimau" and I found myself alone. I have never since forgotten the Malay word for tiger. "Satu ampat jalan" worked well for us as "1 4 the road" too.
Time to go.
DH
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Same period, same location (or close), different aeroplane:
I once was an eager historian on the Lockheed model 12, a small twin that predated the similar Beech 18. One I recall finding some data on one that operated for Malayan carrier(s), and it was written off at Bukit Besi (a district of KL?).
Any clues?
I once was an eager historian on the Lockheed model 12, a small twin that predated the similar Beech 18. One I recall finding some data on one that operated for Malayan carrier(s), and it was written off at Bukit Besi (a district of KL?).
Any clues?
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Quite right Old-Duffer, I just wanted to start something for that era and was hazy on detail. Now done homework ... after sort of mastering the Sycamore at S Cerney, I arrived at KL in 1959 after a few weeks embarkation leave in UK, dealing only with the movers, via a prolonged flight in a Britannia to Changi, then a wonderful clattering train journey to that fabulous rail station at KL. I was posted to 194, but was greeted on arrival with "but your posting was cancelled, there is no 194 Sqn". The Sycamores had been grounded for weeks by then, 155 Sqn had been disbanded, and 110 Sqn formed with, presumably, 155's Whirlwind 4s. I was lucky to get my feet under the table as 110's adjutant and not be sent home and thus had my only 3 months ground tour in 38 years of the RAF ... not too arduous, I seem to remember mainly writing Squadron Routine Orders, cranking some antiquated telephone and bellowing down a line to FEAF Headquarters down in Singapore. I got a fair bit of unloggable time in the Whirlwind and eventually a formal conversion, and we got a proper adj. Then we all moved after a few months up to Butterworth with the Aussies, lived on Penang, greeted "Merdeka", and had the best 3 years of my life.
We operated the Whirlwinds for a bit, then the Sycamore's problems were resolved. As I was by then one of a few theoretically qualified on them, I had several trips down to, I think, Seletar to ground run the beasts ... some right rocking and rolling ensued to get those blades back in track (there was a flat plate attached to the top of the cyclic with a sheet of paper on, and you held a pencil on it to trace the crazy antics of the feedback, manual controls of course, to give some sort of trace to get an initial coarse tracking correction). And then the Whirlwinds were replaced by the Sycamores once again, and they were amazingly reliable.
DH
We operated the Whirlwinds for a bit, then the Sycamore's problems were resolved. As I was by then one of a few theoretically qualified on them, I had several trips down to, I think, Seletar to ground run the beasts ... some right rocking and rolling ensued to get those blades back in track (there was a flat plate attached to the top of the cyclic with a sheet of paper on, and you held a pencil on it to trace the crazy antics of the feedback, manual controls of course, to give some sort of trace to get an initial coarse tracking correction). And then the Whirlwinds were replaced by the Sycamores once again, and they were amazingly reliable.
DH
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barit1, story on the link. Did a small amount of flying in this very aircraft as a snotty teenager when owned by BHP, and in their other Lockheed 12 VH-ABH, which is still flying in the hands of a private owner in Queensland. Father was responsible for arrangements when they visited town, and the pilots used to dine at home, hence the rides when they were able.
VH-ASG
VH-ASG
Well Deltahot, you've gotta write all this stuff down, it's too valuable to lose and I know that there are several plans afoot to get some books of memories over the years, prepared and published for the centenary in 2018 - of course there might not be an air force by then but that's another issue!
Frank Barnes has now left us and so, I think, has Cedric. If the Paul G you mention went on to command the Belvedere squadron - 66 - then he is very much still around and lives near High Wycombe. Likewise, if you meant Tom Blackwood, who sold me an insurance policy when I was a snotty youth at T/H, then he has also departed for better things.
As to the Belvedere arriving with a nose up and a pile of soldiers sliding none too gracefully down the steeply sloping cabin, there is a photograph of that which may have been on this site a while ago.
Keep the stories coming - this Thread has a long way to run yet!!
Old Duffer
Frank Barnes has now left us and so, I think, has Cedric. If the Paul G you mention went on to command the Belvedere squadron - 66 - then he is very much still around and lives near High Wycombe. Likewise, if you meant Tom Blackwood, who sold me an insurance policy when I was a snotty youth at T/H, then he has also departed for better things.
As to the Belvedere arriving with a nose up and a pile of soldiers sliding none too gracefully down the steeply sloping cabin, there is a photograph of that which may have been on this site a while ago.
Keep the stories coming - this Thread has a long way to run yet!!
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Bukit Besi
With reference to post #5, Bukit Besi is a hill (bukit) 3NMs to the South East of the original Kuala Lumpur Airport at Sungai Besi.
It is the reporting point for all routes arriving from the South and East.
I flew past it today and reported to Simpang Tower "North of Bukit Besi, One Thousand Five Hundred Feet", with return "call Downwind 22 for Visual Approach"
The airport and the airport has changed a little bit from your Malaya days, danger now comes from the Petronas Twin Towers and a billboard less than half a wingspan from the runway edge of the 22 threshold. The billboard is about 60 feet high.
For someone into the eighth decade it certainly keeps me awake in the circuit.
With reference to post #5, Bukit Besi is a hill (bukit) 3NMs to the South East of the original Kuala Lumpur Airport at Sungai Besi.
It is the reporting point for all routes arriving from the South and East.
I flew past it today and reported to Simpang Tower "North of Bukit Besi, One Thousand Five Hundred Feet", with return "call Downwind 22 for Visual Approach"
The airport and the airport has changed a little bit from your Malaya days, danger now comes from the Petronas Twin Towers and a billboard less than half a wingspan from the runway edge of the 22 threshold. The billboard is about 60 feet high.
For someone into the eighth decade it certainly keeps me awake in the circuit.
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O-D you are right about Paul G, and very close with Tom B, but mine was/isTom Browning. Oddly enough, it was the tall Pete L who sold me an insurance policy at TH when I was being turned into a QHI.
More anon.
Sultan, was Bukit Besi created from the spoil of what I vaguely remember as a seriously deep quarry not too far East of Simpang? Anyone know what caused the crash of that very nice looking Lockheed 12? And congratulations on still flying yourself around at that age - I couldn't afford it, and the RAF wouldn't keep me beyond 57ish.
DH
More anon.
Sultan, was Bukit Besi created from the spoil of what I vaguely remember as a seriously deep quarry not too far East of Simpang? Anyone know what caused the crash of that very nice looking Lockheed 12? And congratulations on still flying yourself around at that age - I couldn't afford it, and the RAF wouldn't keep me beyond 57ish.
DH
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I wrote this in a Flight Sim forum, so it was easy to copy, and yes I know that if you have flown the old Sycamore you will need no reminder of what came naturally but to younger drivers it may be of interest.
So this early RAF helicopter from the 50s, the Sycamore, was a manual machine, no hydraulic controls, optimised for cruise with the cyclic stick central and the fuselage level. For aerodynamic reasons a basic chopper will roll towards the advancing side of the disc in forward flight, and this clever chopper had a built in correction which applied a left tilt to the disc to compensate as the stick went forward. This meant that in any condition other than the cruise it was anything but optimal – take-off had to start with the stick way back (to get the fuselage to ‘sit up’ level for a vertical lift off) which would give an unwanted roll to the right so the stick had also to be held way over to the left as the lift started. Then as the fuselage sat up the stick had to go forward and right towards central again to get a clean vertical lift-off, while playing a fine dance with the throttle and collective lever in the left hand with feet on the tail rotor pedals counteracting the yaw from the changing torque. In a tight clearing on a log platform or sloping ground this mattered a lot. Optimum rotor rpm in the hover and for climb out was 270. The throttle, like a motorcycle twist-grip on the end of the collective, was interconnected so that it was increased as the collective was raised, and vice versa, but not precisely. Starting at 270 rpm, raising the collective gave too much throttle initially, so the throttle had to be backed off to keep the revs constant, then rolled on again for the latter half of the take-off. The Sycamore had only a central collective lever - instructing from the left seat was challenging, sharing the same throttle in the 'wrong' hand.
I could ramble on about performance out of hot, still, humid, jungle LZs, but this was way before Vietnam and Hueys and readers of Chickenhawk and similar accounts would be seriously unimpressed, so perhaps not.
DH
So this early RAF helicopter from the 50s, the Sycamore, was a manual machine, no hydraulic controls, optimised for cruise with the cyclic stick central and the fuselage level. For aerodynamic reasons a basic chopper will roll towards the advancing side of the disc in forward flight, and this clever chopper had a built in correction which applied a left tilt to the disc to compensate as the stick went forward. This meant that in any condition other than the cruise it was anything but optimal – take-off had to start with the stick way back (to get the fuselage to ‘sit up’ level for a vertical lift off) which would give an unwanted roll to the right so the stick had also to be held way over to the left as the lift started. Then as the fuselage sat up the stick had to go forward and right towards central again to get a clean vertical lift-off, while playing a fine dance with the throttle and collective lever in the left hand with feet on the tail rotor pedals counteracting the yaw from the changing torque. In a tight clearing on a log platform or sloping ground this mattered a lot. Optimum rotor rpm in the hover and for climb out was 270. The throttle, like a motorcycle twist-grip on the end of the collective, was interconnected so that it was increased as the collective was raised, and vice versa, but not precisely. Starting at 270 rpm, raising the collective gave too much throttle initially, so the throttle had to be backed off to keep the revs constant, then rolled on again for the latter half of the take-off. The Sycamore had only a central collective lever - instructing from the left seat was challenging, sharing the same throttle in the 'wrong' hand.
I could ramble on about performance out of hot, still, humid, jungle LZs, but this was way before Vietnam and Hueys and readers of Chickenhawk and similar accounts would be seriously unimpressed, so perhaps not.
DH
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Brian and Sultan, many thanks for the great replies on the lovely Lockheed! The article Bill Larkins and I wrote for AAHS is now 39 years old, and could stand an update I guess...
As to the Belvedere arriving with a nose up and a pile of soldiers sliding none too gracefully down the steeply sloping cabin, there is a photograph of that which may have been on this site a while ago.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...e-footage.html
deltahot et al,
I don't know if you were at Tern Hill or even Ternhill, when the Sycamore was finally chucked away as a training aircraft.
The control antics to which you refer also applied when hovering out of wind: eg, if the wind was from the quarter, then the cyclic had to be used to compensate for the tipping moment. This could lead quickly to running out of cyclic control authority and was the cause of several accidents within a few weeks during the Spring of 1966.
In one of these, the aircraft rolled over and the blades smashed themselves to pieces, other damage was sustained and the engine badly shock loaded. When all was quiet, the two pilots extricated themselves with the guy who was 'on top' being somewhat annoyed when his colleague stepped on his head as he clambered to get out ASAP.
The Sycamore, which went on to give several more good years of service as a comms aircraft, was taken out of service as a trainer and replaced by the the Sioux.
As an aside, the Sycamore also had an interesting method of trimming. This involved IIRC, a tank which contained fluid (water??) and this was pumped fore and aft as the need arose to help trim the beast. A couple or more years ago, I stood in the display hall at the AAC Museum at Middle Wallop whilst two former QHIs, both clutching their logbooks, had an argument about how much juice this tank contained and which switches to use to pump it. As an ancient Hoverfly pilot (that's both the Hoverfly and the pilot, BTW!) said; 'In my day, we used to move some house bricks from underneath the back seats, before we took off'!
Old Duffer
I don't know if you were at Tern Hill or even Ternhill, when the Sycamore was finally chucked away as a training aircraft.
The control antics to which you refer also applied when hovering out of wind: eg, if the wind was from the quarter, then the cyclic had to be used to compensate for the tipping moment. This could lead quickly to running out of cyclic control authority and was the cause of several accidents within a few weeks during the Spring of 1966.
In one of these, the aircraft rolled over and the blades smashed themselves to pieces, other damage was sustained and the engine badly shock loaded. When all was quiet, the two pilots extricated themselves with the guy who was 'on top' being somewhat annoyed when his colleague stepped on his head as he clambered to get out ASAP.
The Sycamore, which went on to give several more good years of service as a comms aircraft, was taken out of service as a trainer and replaced by the the Sioux.
As an aside, the Sycamore also had an interesting method of trimming. This involved IIRC, a tank which contained fluid (water??) and this was pumped fore and aft as the need arose to help trim the beast. A couple or more years ago, I stood in the display hall at the AAC Museum at Middle Wallop whilst two former QHIs, both clutching their logbooks, had an argument about how much juice this tank contained and which switches to use to pump it. As an ancient Hoverfly pilot (that's both the Hoverfly and the pilot, BTW!) said; 'In my day, we used to move some house bricks from underneath the back seats, before we took off'!
Old Duffer
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Yes O-D. Only a couple of gallons of fluid in the trim tanks I think, the rear one was way back in the tail cone and a few pounds there, or not there, made a significant difference to the C of G. The selector was a small lever, ergonomically correct, i.e. fwd, off, aft, but the pumping rate was slow - if you were one of several choppers in a troop lift out of an LZ with room for only one at a time, trick was to start pumping aft before touchdown, staying just within controllable limits, load up and lift off before next chopper arrived, rather than sit on pad waiting.
I think there was a gauge to show where the fluid was, there was certainly a mechanical indicator of where your cyclic was for more accurate trimming. Stick force trimming was by 2 nice wheels, lateral and fore and aft, to adjust spring tension on the cyclic.
The older Dragonfly definitely had a weight which was hooked on, externally at the front if you were solo I think, but I never flew them, although there was at least one at S Cerney when I first went there.
I had left TernHill before the Sycamores went ... off to Culdrose with the Navy for 3 years instructing on their 705 Sqn. That was a good tour, Whirlwind 3, 7, and the little Hiller12, often all in one day. Knew more RN pilots than RAF for years after.
Back to Malaya ... our flying kit was jungle green shirt and trousers, and those soooo comfortable green jungle boots, soft, high ankles, long lace-up, brilliant. Same for you out of Seletar/Borneo later??? Next best flying boot was the desert boot (Khormaksar, Aden, later still. Maybe another thread).
DH
I think there was a gauge to show where the fluid was, there was certainly a mechanical indicator of where your cyclic was for more accurate trimming. Stick force trimming was by 2 nice wheels, lateral and fore and aft, to adjust spring tension on the cyclic.
The older Dragonfly definitely had a weight which was hooked on, externally at the front if you were solo I think, but I never flew them, although there was at least one at S Cerney when I first went there.
I had left TernHill before the Sycamores went ... off to Culdrose with the Navy for 3 years instructing on their 705 Sqn. That was a good tour, Whirlwind 3, 7, and the little Hiller12, often all in one day. Knew more RN pilots than RAF for years after.
Back to Malaya ... our flying kit was jungle green shirt and trousers, and those soooo comfortable green jungle boots, soft, high ankles, long lace-up, brilliant. Same for you out of Seletar/Borneo later??? Next best flying boot was the desert boot (Khormaksar, Aden, later still. Maybe another thread).
DH
When I was in Labuan in 1966 one of our more experienced pilots was Charly Verry who was ex Dragonflys. He said that you could recognise one of their number by the noise of their left hand knuckles dragging along the ground. He told me this Dragonfly story.
He went into an area of cleared forest to pick up an Army Major. The passenger arrived with his briefcase and climbed in the back. On lifting off the pad it seemed as this briefcase was packed with gold because he immediately ran out of forward cyclic. He managed to fly around this clearing in a circle shouting at this major to throw the bag out but he wasn't letting go. After two very slow circuits he persuaded the major to jump out at the pad and control was restored.
The Sycamore, as a trainer, was probably the best helicopter trainer going. Fly that, you can fly anything.
26 pints/pounds in the trimming tank rings a bell.
He went into an area of cleared forest to pick up an Army Major. The passenger arrived with his briefcase and climbed in the back. On lifting off the pad it seemed as this briefcase was packed with gold because he immediately ran out of forward cyclic. He managed to fly around this clearing in a circle shouting at this major to throw the bag out but he wasn't letting go. After two very slow circuits he persuaded the major to jump out at the pad and control was restored.
The Sycamore, as a trainer, was probably the best helicopter trainer going. Fly that, you can fly anything.
26 pints/pounds in the trimming tank rings a bell.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 20th May 2013 at 19:10.
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Well Fareastdriver I'm surprised I didn't know or know of Charly Verry from that era - I have read that story about the Dragonfly somewhere though - not a lot of fun whizzing around a jungly hole with crazy C of G and cyclic hard forward (or back). Just a suspicion here - were you on early jets ... Meteors, Vampires?
I think I have definitely left it a bit late to trigger responses from anyone from 110 in my Penang days ... I guess many have passed on or are not computer savvy or have not found this brilliant site. It's clearly been going for years but took me long enough to come across it and there is just so much stuff here. Might have to try Aden 5 years on ...
Penang then was just idyllic to live on - most of us had little 50cc Hondas or similar and commuted daily to Butterworth on the mainland via ferries - there's a huge bridge there now of course. Night ops didn't happen. Daughter went to a boarding school up in the cool of the Cameron Highlands. Drove down the West coast for a shared holiday with George Puddy and his family (I know George has passed on) on Pankor Island - maybe 8 wooden beach chalets then, mega resort now.
Sorry, supposed to be about flying innit. That old Sycamore, unusually even now I suspect, had quite a large operating range of rotor rpm ... max was 287, 270 for hover/climb, cruise 250 or even less. With the usual lack of performance from heat/humidity, in a higher altitude LZ when boost became limited you could wind on the extra rrpm and maybe get an extra inch of boost pressure, then overpitch down to 270 from 287 and get a nice kick of lift. That Leonides was amazingly reliable, only remember one letting go on Boss Cedric in the bottom of a clearing, and he just slumped onto the rough ground. Took days to enlarge the hole enough to get spares and a working party in to do the engine change though.
Ok, that's enough.
DH
I think I have definitely left it a bit late to trigger responses from anyone from 110 in my Penang days ... I guess many have passed on or are not computer savvy or have not found this brilliant site. It's clearly been going for years but took me long enough to come across it and there is just so much stuff here. Might have to try Aden 5 years on ...
Penang then was just idyllic to live on - most of us had little 50cc Hondas or similar and commuted daily to Butterworth on the mainland via ferries - there's a huge bridge there now of course. Night ops didn't happen. Daughter went to a boarding school up in the cool of the Cameron Highlands. Drove down the West coast for a shared holiday with George Puddy and his family (I know George has passed on) on Pankor Island - maybe 8 wooden beach chalets then, mega resort now.
Sorry, supposed to be about flying innit. That old Sycamore, unusually even now I suspect, had quite a large operating range of rotor rpm ... max was 287, 270 for hover/climb, cruise 250 or even less. With the usual lack of performance from heat/humidity, in a higher altitude LZ when boost became limited you could wind on the extra rrpm and maybe get an extra inch of boost pressure, then overpitch down to 270 from 287 and get a nice kick of lift. That Leonides was amazingly reliable, only remember one letting go on Boss Cedric in the bottom of a clearing, and he just slumped onto the rough ground. Took days to enlarge the hole enough to get spares and a working party in to do the engine change though.
Ok, that's enough.
DH
FED &DH, overpitch RRPM 287; de-icing fluid in the `C oG Compensator,60lbs; front tank 5 1/2 gals.rear 5 3/4 gals; 3 1/2 mins to pump all aft/f`rd, 2lbs aft per 5gals fuel used......Oh the joys of ground resonance...Syc..
- were you on early jets ... Meteors, Vampires?
Never regretted it thought; I have had the time of anybody's life.