British Airways 707-436 questions
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
British Airways 707-436 questions
I have some questions about the 707-436s final years at BA before being removed/transferred to British Airtours
What routes were BA using them on, say around 1974/75?
Were they still in an F/Y cabin configuration, or all Y?
Were any of them dedicated to charter flights before going to Airtours?
What routes were BA using them on, say around 1974/75?
Were they still in an F/Y cabin configuration, or all Y?
Were any of them dedicated to charter flights before going to Airtours?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,096
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I went to Singapore and back twice in a BA 707 and my ex, as a hostie, used to fly LHR-Tokyo-Anchorage, (over the North Pole), in the B707.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In "BIG SKY".
Age: 84
Posts: 418
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jackbr,
My log book shows that in early 1973 they were starting to do charters. January saw me in Oakland, Gander, Mexico City, Tahiti and Honolulu. September and October saw me in Kansas City, Oakland and Gander followed by Detroit to JFK and on to Frankfurt. I also went to Borgas on the Black sea one night in May '73.
About the end of December we started using them heavily on the Canadian trips. Toronto, Montreal etc. from LHR and Manchester. There was still the odd Dubai trip in '74 but Toronto was "home"!! Then just one Cairo in April '74Then not much variation other than the odd Cairo and JFK until my last flight on one, G-APFM from JFK to LHR on October 30th '76. Some had gone to Airtours by then but 'FM went to the desert a couple of days later.
They were operated F/Y during that time and not dedicated to charters but a mix.
I am talking -436's as the 336's did the polar routes, and Moscow-Tokyo, and were around after the 436's had departed.
Hope that helps.
Speeedbird 48.
My log book shows that in early 1973 they were starting to do charters. January saw me in Oakland, Gander, Mexico City, Tahiti and Honolulu. September and October saw me in Kansas City, Oakland and Gander followed by Detroit to JFK and on to Frankfurt. I also went to Borgas on the Black sea one night in May '73.
About the end of December we started using them heavily on the Canadian trips. Toronto, Montreal etc. from LHR and Manchester. There was still the odd Dubai trip in '74 but Toronto was "home"!! Then just one Cairo in April '74Then not much variation other than the odd Cairo and JFK until my last flight on one, G-APFM from JFK to LHR on October 30th '76. Some had gone to Airtours by then but 'FM went to the desert a couple of days later.
They were operated F/Y during that time and not dedicated to charters but a mix.
I am talking -436's as the 336's did the polar routes, and Moscow-Tokyo, and were around after the 436's had departed.
Hope that helps.
Speeedbird 48.
Last edited by Speedbird48; 28th Jun 2012 at 00:37.
The 436 were progressively reduced in number, some went to Airtours, some were retired. There wasn't a decision to retire the VC10 before the 707 or vice versa, both ran down somewhat equally, by 1980 there were still a handful of each type (707s down to just the -336s) in service.
There were a few of the -436 converted to all-economy, they were used on charters negotiated through BOAC Ltd, which was a subsidiary company, although just for sales/marketing, the ops side remained with the mainstream operation. They also did schedules to Toronto, where there was a long tradition of operating many of the BOAC flights with all-economy aircraft, reflecting the commercial demand on the route.
BOAC were starting to lose ground to the "Affinity Group Charters", which many independents were starting to get in on as the first generation 707s came onto the secondhand market (many from Pan Am). Carriers such as Lloyd, Laker, Caledonian, Donaldson, etc were getting this traffic, and BOAC Ltd was a response.
The -336 aircraft appear to have remained on mainstream thin-trunk routes to the end.
There were a few of the -436 converted to all-economy, they were used on charters negotiated through BOAC Ltd, which was a subsidiary company, although just for sales/marketing, the ops side remained with the mainstream operation. They also did schedules to Toronto, where there was a long tradition of operating many of the BOAC flights with all-economy aircraft, reflecting the commercial demand on the route.
BOAC were starting to lose ground to the "Affinity Group Charters", which many independents were starting to get in on as the first generation 707s came onto the secondhand market (many from Pan Am). Carriers such as Lloyd, Laker, Caledonian, Donaldson, etc were getting this traffic, and BOAC Ltd was a response.
The -336 aircraft appear to have remained on mainstream thin-trunk routes to the end.
Last edited by WHBM; 28th Jun 2012 at 11:52.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Age: 66
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a link to a photo I took of a -436 at Manchester in August 1974, G-APFH:
Manchester 1974 BA 707 G-APFH | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Manchester 1974 BA 707 G-APFH | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
-436 Routes
Having a shorter range than the PW-336 the RR-436 went (not surprisingly) on the shorter routes. LHR-FRA-TLV-THR-DEL-Rangoon-BKK-HKG-Tokyo, Haneda-HNL-SFO and return! Also LHR-Rome-DEL-and oints East. Also to BDA, JFK, LHR-Manchester- Prestwick-Toronto-YUL. LHR-BOS. Also to SYD via a hundred stops too. There were some (night) charters to the Bulgarian holiday spots IIRC.
The -336 operated on the Carribean routes, MIA, LAX, SFO and also to Tokyo via Anchorage or Moscow. Anywhere that needed rather longer legs.
-436 left mainline around 1976 but the -336 was still in service till 1980 I believe.
S
The -336 operated on the Carribean routes, MIA, LAX, SFO and also to Tokyo via Anchorage or Moscow. Anywhere that needed rather longer legs.
-436 left mainline around 1976 but the -336 was still in service till 1980 I believe.
S
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Uganda
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which is the airframe in the field in Entebbe , you can still see the very faded "Airtours" on the side of the aircraft, anybody got the real story on that aircraft? have heard a few over the years, not sure which one to believe, but understand the ground engineer used to carry a paint brush and tin of paint with him to keep changing the aircraft registration. It has RR engines.
G-APFL apparently, one of the -436. Retired by Airtours in 1980, it had a couple of new grey-market owners but whether they actually operated it, can't say. Dumped at Entebbe in 1983, apparently still in remnants of Airtours livery, so hasn't been used for nearly 30 years, supposed to be turned into a restaurant in the 1990s, that doesn't seem to have happened either. Last reported in a childrens' playground.
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
There were a few of the -436 converted to all-economy
There were also all-Y configurations for the STVs and SUVs as well (from memory 117Y and 157Y) but they were very rarely used.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They must have still been flying with Airtours in the '80s as I remember pre-flighting a C172 on the South Side apron at Manchester when one landed on (the then) 24. It landed long and was still going at quite a rate when it passed me, engines roaring in reverse.
It went out of sight behind the Kilroe hangar so I ran to the edge of the apron to witness what looked likely to be an over-run off the end of 24. The wings were bouncing up and down with the effects of reverse thrust and still in reverse it took the final turn-off at such a speed I'm amazed the tyres survived!
All was OK in the end, but it must have been 'interesting' for the pax!
It went out of sight behind the Kilroe hangar so I ran to the edge of the apron to witness what looked likely to be an over-run off the end of 24. The wings were bouncing up and down with the effects of reverse thrust and still in reverse it took the final turn-off at such a speed I'm amazed the tyres survived!
All was OK in the end, but it must have been 'interesting' for the pax!
Were the aircraft actually reseated to all-economy, or were a few lucky Y pax just given the F seats ? It's not just the seats to change, there would be cabin dividers and ensuring the supplementary oxygen units and PSUs overhead matched up with the seats beneath.
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I can't remember the 747-100s (my memory works in reverse - the more recent, the more difficult to recall) but the narrowbodies had standard configurations - 16/130 for the 707, 16/123 for the SUV and 12/99 for the STV. If the product planners wanted something different, it would be for a full timetable season but I don't think we had carte blanche, there had to be a very good reason for a deviation from the norm. I'm pretty sure the daylight Eastbound NYC-LON STV has a much bigger F-class cabin.
I'm trying to imagine: if LON-PIK-YYZ were the only year-round all-Y route, you could theoretically operate it with a singleton aircraft, but in practice you would absolutely need a second aircraft as backup - or risk regular substitutions by an aircraft with 12 fewer seats (on a flight that was usually full). Hence the availability for charters, extra sections etc. Plus the need to accommodate scheduled maintenance. I guess, over the fleet, a couple of reconfigurations would be necessary each season.
On occasion a STV would be reconfigures in all F-class for royal tours. Afterwards, it might be available for a week or so for ad hoc use. I can recall it being used for the daylight Eastbound, whether due to unserviceability or a heavy F-class demand (and very low Y-class - in which case indeed the lucky Y passengers would get the upgrade). It was also used on at least one occasion as backup for an u/s Concorde.
I'm trying to imagine: if LON-PIK-YYZ were the only year-round all-Y route, you could theoretically operate it with a singleton aircraft, but in practice you would absolutely need a second aircraft as backup - or risk regular substitutions by an aircraft with 12 fewer seats (on a flight that was usually full). Hence the availability for charters, extra sections etc. Plus the need to accommodate scheduled maintenance. I guess, over the fleet, a couple of reconfigurations would be necessary each season.
On occasion a STV would be reconfigures in all F-class for royal tours. Afterwards, it might be available for a week or so for ad hoc use. I can recall it being used for the daylight Eastbound, whether due to unserviceability or a heavy F-class demand (and very low Y-class - in which case indeed the lucky Y passengers would get the upgrade). It was also used on at least one occasion as backup for an u/s Concorde.
STV ? SUV ?
Standard VC10 ? Super VC10 ? Always saw the Super as VCX in the timetables.
Did Concorde and the Standard VC10 actually overlap in service ? I'd be a bit hacked to book the former and get the latter.
In the 1971 summer timetable there are 11 economy 707s a week to Toronto, one or two a day, with only one stopping at Prestwick (and then only in the highest season), and a couple at Montreal, most were nonstop. There was a daily normal FY aircraft to both Montreal and Toronto, and a daily FY MAN-PIK-YUL-YYZ as well. As charters were done as well you would need at least three economy-configured aircraft, and possibly more, given that some BOAC Ltd charters were to Singapore with the aircraft away for several days. Air Canada also had all-economy DC8s as well in parallel, but these were their combi pax/freight aircraft with a small economy cabin. I never understood why, for years, only Toronto, of all the myriad points on the BOAC network, merited these special all-economy aircraft (it went back to Britannia days). Was it something to do with the pool arrangement with Air Canada ?
Standard VC10 ? Super VC10 ? Always saw the Super as VCX in the timetables.
Did Concorde and the Standard VC10 actually overlap in service ? I'd be a bit hacked to book the former and get the latter.
In the 1971 summer timetable there are 11 economy 707s a week to Toronto, one or two a day, with only one stopping at Prestwick (and then only in the highest season), and a couple at Montreal, most were nonstop. There was a daily normal FY aircraft to both Montreal and Toronto, and a daily FY MAN-PIK-YUL-YYZ as well. As charters were done as well you would need at least three economy-configured aircraft, and possibly more, given that some BOAC Ltd charters were to Singapore with the aircraft away for several days. Air Canada also had all-economy DC8s as well in parallel, but these were their combi pax/freight aircraft with a small economy cabin. I never understood why, for years, only Toronto, of all the myriad points on the BOAC network, merited these special all-economy aircraft (it went back to Britannia days). Was it something to do with the pool arrangement with Air Canada ?
Last edited by WHBM; 29th Jun 2012 at 12:51.
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,664
Received 321 Likes
on
178 Posts
They must have still been flying with Airtours in the '80s
Last edited by treadigraph; 29th Jun 2012 at 13:19.
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
My 'hands on' experience dates from 1969/70, when I worked in the Prestwick duty room and then T3* check-in, then from 1974-80 when I worked in Western Routes (specifically USA) planning. I know the daily LHR-PIK-YYZ was all Y, I used it regularly to shuttle up and down to LON. (incidentally the PIK-LON passengers were segregated at the back, with a Customs officer to ensure they didn't interact with the transatlantics).
The year I spent on check-in, 1969-70, I can almost guarantee that was the only regular all-Y flight. Bear in mind that BOAC at the time had probably less than 25 daily departures from LHR. There wasn't even a Montreal terminator at that point - it went on to Chicago. Charters at that time were virtually unheard-of. The 747s should have been introduced during that period but they were sitting in Seattle with concrete blocks instead of engines.
Probably true, but being told it was the royal aircraft might have helped.
* Sorry - 'Oceanic'. There were only two terminals at the time.
The year I spent on check-in, 1969-70, I can almost guarantee that was the only regular all-Y flight. Bear in mind that BOAC at the time had probably less than 25 daily departures from LHR. There wasn't even a Montreal terminator at that point - it went on to Chicago. Charters at that time were virtually unheard-of. The 747s should have been introduced during that period but they were sitting in Seattle with concrete blocks instead of engines.
I'd be a bit hacked to book the former and get the latter.
* Sorry - 'Oceanic'. There were only two terminals at the time.
Last edited by The SSK; 29th Jun 2012 at 13:43.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: It wasn't me, I wasn't there, wrong country ;-)
Age: 79
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
-436s at airtours
We had fun with those, round the world charters, many wet leases, Syrian Air, DETA Mozambique (Windhoek was wonderful), Air Seychelles, Air Mauritius etc
The -436 worked well for us
PS. BEA/British Airtours reunion this eve at the BA club LGW £10 & starts @ 7
The -436 worked well for us
PS. BEA/British Airtours reunion this eve at the BA club LGW £10 & starts @ 7
I think the last -436 was APFJ, which went from Airtours in summer 1981. There were still some 707 requirements at Airtours, so two -336 came across from the main line fleet as replacements, the last of these (and the last BA group 707) seems to be AXXY, one of the "Moscow" -336B's, which was disposed in summer 1984.
Just last year there were pictures of all the 787s built up at Everett awaiting engines, with exactly the same. I did wonder if, after all these years, they were the same concrete blocks !
I remember as a young lad travelling LGW-DBV and back in British Airtours 707-436's. I think this would have been in 1976. I also remember these flights were known as "Tango" charters, though I can't remember why?
What was memorable about this trip (apart from these being my only ever flights in a 707) was that we arrived in DBV during some fairly heavy weather and lost a nosewheel on "landing" - I remember some of the rubber jungle also made an appearance due to the nature of the arrival and my mother's "concern" as the errant wheel bounced past us down the side of the runway. Thankfully the remaining one remained in place, so there the drama ended, other than I imagine something of a delay to the returning LGW flight.
Anyone going to own up to "involvement" or remember this incident?
What was memorable about this trip (apart from these being my only ever flights in a 707) was that we arrived in DBV during some fairly heavy weather and lost a nosewheel on "landing" - I remember some of the rubber jungle also made an appearance due to the nature of the arrival and my mother's "concern" as the errant wheel bounced past us down the side of the runway. Thankfully the remaining one remained in place, so there the drama ended, other than I imagine something of a delay to the returning LGW flight.
Anyone going to own up to "involvement" or remember this incident?
Last edited by Wycombe; 29th Jun 2012 at 16:51.
Airtours charters were always announced as Tango, for a reason I never understood, there used to be cards up at their desks at Gatwick advising that PA's for departures (remember those ?) would call the flights using "Tango". I used to think it must be their callsign but this was apparently "Beatours", which must have sometimesgot mangled a bit by overseas ATC !
Airtours seem to have been just about the only UK charter operator to do holiday runs to Eastern Europe in socialist days, which were otherwise invariably done by charters from the relevant national airlines, Balkan for Bulgaria and several locals for Yugoslavia. I presume the tie with British Airways, who those airlines would be in pool with for schedules to London, helped this.
Airtours seem to have been just about the only UK charter operator to do holiday runs to Eastern Europe in socialist days, which were otherwise invariably done by charters from the relevant national airlines, Balkan for Bulgaria and several locals for Yugoslavia. I presume the tie with British Airways, who those airlines would be in pool with for schedules to London, helped this.