Short Belfast-why?
Of course there was a time when transport pilots came from the OCU as fully fledged Captains and went straight into the left hand seat of a Hastings and never served their time in the RHS.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
So those were the ones who still had a full complement of fingers on their left hands, never having had the Eng use the sharp edge of a nav. ruler to "correct" the co's actions.
Of course there was a time when transport pilots came from the OCU as fully fledged Captains and went straight into the left hand seat of a Hastings and never served their time in the RHS.
I don't think the Hastings safety record was any worse than other aircraft of that era, although metal fatigue in the elevator hinges did cause at least two fatal accidents. It was also a cow to land in cross winds. I spent two years as a second pilot on the Hastings and never carried out a single take-off or landing, but I did experience more than my fair share of frightening arrivals. IMHO it was bloody awful aeroplane!
Thinking back to the immediate postwar years, sheer necessity and the pressure of events must have played a part in driving straight-through conversions to the left seat. For example, all of Bomber Command's 4 Group was transferred to TC on 7 May 1945, as the war in Europe ended, in anticipation of a need to transport troops to the Far East - so Halifax pilots found themselves becoming Dakota pilots after a quick type/role conversion. Then in 1948 came another TC expansion to cope with the Berlin Airlift. When that was done, the transport role had to take a decided back seat as the RAF created its Canberra medium bomber force and, later, the V-Force. With a degree of 'stability' forced upon it, I imagine it then became feasible for Transport Command to insist on pilots doing co-pilot tours before graduating across to the other seat.
I imagine it then became feasible for Transport Command to insist on pilots doing co-pilot tours before graduating across to the other seat.
They started training Co-pilots on Hastings and Beverleys after the introduction of the Britannia. Second pilots were not qualified on type. For many years there was no way to progress. Second pilot hours were worth nothing. We had to do at least 50 P1 hours a year in a Chipmunk or Anson just to qualify for flyng pay. My two week Hastings course covered climatology, load sheets and how to operate the undercarriage and flaps - utterly soul destroying for a wannabe Hunter pilot, who's course was cancelled courtesy of Duncan Sandys.
Hastings Losses:
Just to reassure myself that my memory was not particularly defective, I have just done a quick check:
TG499 AAEE & RAE Pannier broke away and wrecked tailplane; crashed
at Beacon Hill, Wilts., 26.09.49
TG508 242 OCU Swung on landing; wingtip hit ground, aircraft
skidded and caught fire. Thorney Island 07.03.62.
TG519 47 Sqn Crashed on approach, Dishforth. 02.10.47.
TG522 114 Sqn Engine cut; stalled on approach and crash landed
1 nm south of Khartoum.
TG534 Dishforth Caught fire starting up Schleswigland. 06.04.49.
Damaged beyond repair.
TG552 Lyneham Crashed on landing and damaged by fire. 12.04.51.
TG559 Lyneham Crashed on landing Abingdon and DBF. 09.10.53.
TG562 Lyneham Crashed on take-off, Topcliffe. 14.03.52.
TG564 53 Sqn Undershot landing at Kai Tak and hit hut. DBF.
27.05.53.
TG574 53 Sqn Lost a prop and crashed on finals at Benina.
20.12.50.
TG575 70 Sqn Undercarriage collapsed on landing at El Adem, Caught fire 04.05.66.
TG577 511 Sqn Lost elevator control and dived into the ground on approach, Abingdon 06.07.65.
TG579 48 Sqn Flew into the sea an approach to Gan. 01.03.60
TG580 48 Sqn Sank on landing and undercarriage collapsed at Gan 03.07.59.
TG583 241 OCU Crashed on approach, Dishforth. 31.07.50
TG584 242 OCU Spun into ground on overshoot at Dishforth. 13.09.55
TG602 TCASF Lost elevator, dived into ground WSW of Shallufah, 12.01.53.
TG603 99 Sqn Blown off runway and damaged beyond repair. 16.06.52
TG610 242 OCU Swung on landing, hit control tower Thorney Island 17.12.63.
TG611 Dishforth Crashed on take-off, Tegel, 16.07.49.
TG613 Lyneham Three engines cut; ditched 140 nms WNW of Benghazi, 22.07.53.
TG615 24 Sqn Flew into wood overshooting from Colerne, 21.10.57
TG624 202 Sqn Swung on take-off and stalled, Aldergrove, 27.12.61
WD478 Handling Crashed on take-off from Manby, 19.03.51
WD483 70 Sqn Undercarriage collapsed, caught fire, Ataq, Aden 09.04.56.
WD484 RRE Took off with elevators locked, stalled and dived into the ground, Boscombe Down, 02.03.55.
WD491 24 Sqn Tyre burst on landing, swung and tipped-up, West Raynham, 09.06.67.
WD492 A Flt Flew on to the Greenland ice cap on supply drop, 16.09.52.
WD497 48 Sqn Engine failure during supply drop, stalled and dived into the ground, Seletar, 29.05.61.
WD498 70 Sqn Pilot's seat slid back on take-off, stalled, hit ground and caught fire, El Adem, 10.10.61.
WJ335 53 Sqn Stalled on take-off and hit ground, Abingdon, 22.06.53
WJ341 24 Sqn Sank on approach and undershot runway, Abingdon, 26.07.55.
WJ342 36 Sqn Swung on take-off, undercarriage collapsed, Eastleigh, 23.01.61.
So, 33 Hastings were lost between 1949 and 1967 out of a total of 148 built (not including the two prototypes, TE580 and TE583 which were never in RAF service). That gives a loss rate of 22.3% of all the Hastings built. However, the hastings was in service from 1949 until 1957 so the loss rate was about 1.8 aircraft per year but most of the losses took place in the early years "when young men were sent straight into the left seat and left to get on with it".
Now, I always wanted to fly the Hastings but I got posted on to the Argosy.
We had 56 aircraft and lost four but got one back again so, the net result was three. All of them were caused by finger trouble:
XP413 105 Sqn Went in the water on short finals to runway 08 at Khormaksar on a Cat ride. Finger trouble. Aircraft was rebuilt.
XP441 267 Sqn Tried to go around after bouncing on landing with No.4 engine shut down. Benson, 04.06.70.
XR105 ETPS Italian ETPS student didn't geta 2-engine go-around right. Crew killed. 27.04.76.
XR133 267 Sqn Young captain killed everyone on board doing a beat-up at Got Al Afrag, Libya, 07.05.68.
So, there was a net loss of three Argosys and if we are to take the Italian ETPS student out of the equation (which was well after the Argosy came out of Transport Command) we are left with two.
However, the Argosy was only in service for 10 years so the rate becomes somewhere around 0.004 aircraft lost per year.
I would still like to have flown the Hastings but my two wives and my children are eternally grateful that I got posted on to the Argosy!
Just to reassure myself that my memory was not particularly defective, I have just done a quick check:
TG499 AAEE & RAE Pannier broke away and wrecked tailplane; crashed
at Beacon Hill, Wilts., 26.09.49
TG508 242 OCU Swung on landing; wingtip hit ground, aircraft
skidded and caught fire. Thorney Island 07.03.62.
TG519 47 Sqn Crashed on approach, Dishforth. 02.10.47.
TG522 114 Sqn Engine cut; stalled on approach and crash landed
1 nm south of Khartoum.
TG534 Dishforth Caught fire starting up Schleswigland. 06.04.49.
Damaged beyond repair.
TG552 Lyneham Crashed on landing and damaged by fire. 12.04.51.
TG559 Lyneham Crashed on landing Abingdon and DBF. 09.10.53.
TG562 Lyneham Crashed on take-off, Topcliffe. 14.03.52.
TG564 53 Sqn Undershot landing at Kai Tak and hit hut. DBF.
27.05.53.
TG574 53 Sqn Lost a prop and crashed on finals at Benina.
20.12.50.
TG575 70 Sqn Undercarriage collapsed on landing at El Adem, Caught fire 04.05.66.
TG577 511 Sqn Lost elevator control and dived into the ground on approach, Abingdon 06.07.65.
TG579 48 Sqn Flew into the sea an approach to Gan. 01.03.60
TG580 48 Sqn Sank on landing and undercarriage collapsed at Gan 03.07.59.
TG583 241 OCU Crashed on approach, Dishforth. 31.07.50
TG584 242 OCU Spun into ground on overshoot at Dishforth. 13.09.55
TG602 TCASF Lost elevator, dived into ground WSW of Shallufah, 12.01.53.
TG603 99 Sqn Blown off runway and damaged beyond repair. 16.06.52
TG610 242 OCU Swung on landing, hit control tower Thorney Island 17.12.63.
TG611 Dishforth Crashed on take-off, Tegel, 16.07.49.
TG613 Lyneham Three engines cut; ditched 140 nms WNW of Benghazi, 22.07.53.
TG615 24 Sqn Flew into wood overshooting from Colerne, 21.10.57
TG624 202 Sqn Swung on take-off and stalled, Aldergrove, 27.12.61
WD478 Handling Crashed on take-off from Manby, 19.03.51
WD483 70 Sqn Undercarriage collapsed, caught fire, Ataq, Aden 09.04.56.
WD484 RRE Took off with elevators locked, stalled and dived into the ground, Boscombe Down, 02.03.55.
WD491 24 Sqn Tyre burst on landing, swung and tipped-up, West Raynham, 09.06.67.
WD492 A Flt Flew on to the Greenland ice cap on supply drop, 16.09.52.
WD497 48 Sqn Engine failure during supply drop, stalled and dived into the ground, Seletar, 29.05.61.
WD498 70 Sqn Pilot's seat slid back on take-off, stalled, hit ground and caught fire, El Adem, 10.10.61.
WJ335 53 Sqn Stalled on take-off and hit ground, Abingdon, 22.06.53
WJ341 24 Sqn Sank on approach and undershot runway, Abingdon, 26.07.55.
WJ342 36 Sqn Swung on take-off, undercarriage collapsed, Eastleigh, 23.01.61.
So, 33 Hastings were lost between 1949 and 1967 out of a total of 148 built (not including the two prototypes, TE580 and TE583 which were never in RAF service). That gives a loss rate of 22.3% of all the Hastings built. However, the hastings was in service from 1949 until 1957 so the loss rate was about 1.8 aircraft per year but most of the losses took place in the early years "when young men were sent straight into the left seat and left to get on with it".
Now, I always wanted to fly the Hastings but I got posted on to the Argosy.
We had 56 aircraft and lost four but got one back again so, the net result was three. All of them were caused by finger trouble:
XP413 105 Sqn Went in the water on short finals to runway 08 at Khormaksar on a Cat ride. Finger trouble. Aircraft was rebuilt.
XP441 267 Sqn Tried to go around after bouncing on landing with No.4 engine shut down. Benson, 04.06.70.
XR105 ETPS Italian ETPS student didn't geta 2-engine go-around right. Crew killed. 27.04.76.
XR133 267 Sqn Young captain killed everyone on board doing a beat-up at Got Al Afrag, Libya, 07.05.68.
So, there was a net loss of three Argosys and if we are to take the Italian ETPS student out of the equation (which was well after the Argosy came out of Transport Command) we are left with two.
However, the Argosy was only in service for 10 years so the rate becomes somewhere around 0.004 aircraft lost per year.
I would still like to have flown the Hastings but my two wives and my children are eternally grateful that I got posted on to the Argosy!
890 Meteors lost - 444 fatalities - life was cheap in those days.
You didn't miss anything Jock the Hastings was an awful aeroplane. I did more PIC hours in Meteors (45) than I did on the Hastings (0) during my twenty month tour on 99! I escaped from the RHS when the first Britannias arrived as you needed 1000 hours PIC to become a co-pilot on the shiny new fleet.
You didn't miss anything Jock the Hastings was an awful aeroplane. I did more PIC hours in Meteors (45) than I did on the Hastings (0) during my twenty month tour on 99! I escaped from the RHS when the first Britannias arrived as you needed 1000 hours PIC to become a co-pilot on the shiny new fleet.
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BELFAST
I Remember one sunny evening night going up to manston around 78 and then being greeted by 3 Belfasts which had been placed in to store with the rumour invicta was going to use these for cargo aircraft these then flew out i belive to southend then Tac/Heavylift bought these i could not help laughing when the falklands conflict in 82 was on who helped with the cargo movements again the good old belfast .
G-BEPE/XR362, G-BEPL/XR369 and G-BEPS/XR368.
I flew G-BEPS (with the registration stuck on with black bodge tape) for the very first time from Manston on 14.02.78 with T.N. and Zebedee.
This was the first flight of a civil Belfast (if we are to ignore the fact that Short Brothers used the civil registration G-ASKE for publicity purposes on XR362 during test flying).
I flew G-BEPS (with the registration stuck on with black bodge tape) for the very first time from Manston on 14.02.78 with T.N. and Zebedee.
This was the first flight of a civil Belfast (if we are to ignore the fact that Short Brothers used the civil registration G-ASKE for publicity purposes on XR362 during test flying).
Hello JW411
TG615 24 Sqn Flew into wood overshooting from Colerne, 21.10.57
Bit of a thread hijack but as a youngster at Colerne, I remember a Hastings crashing into a field alongside the Fosse Way, just before the turning off towards the village. Bit south of the easterly threshold. Is this the TG615 accident? Timing is right 57-60 but it wasn't into a wood. Can any ex-Hastings guys confirm this?
TG615 24 Sqn Flew into wood overshooting from Colerne, 21.10.57
Bit of a thread hijack but as a youngster at Colerne, I remember a Hastings crashing into a field alongside the Fosse Way, just before the turning off towards the village. Bit south of the easterly threshold. Is this the TG615 accident? Timing is right 57-60 but it wasn't into a wood. Can any ex-Hastings guys confirm this?