Short Belfast-why?
I know that all 10 aircraft were flown together one day in late 1971. My impression is that this happened because, uniquely, the possibility of doing so arose, rather than as a Flight or RAF News photoshoot. I do not have a photo, but there is one in Jock Manson's 53 Squadron history, "United in Effort."
JW411 should be in a position to fill in all the blanks here in due course.
JW411 should be in a position to fill in all the blanks here in due course.
RadolphHucker;
As you say, you were straight out of Brat School (Halton) and I'm afraid that your memory is a little bit lacking.
Setting up the bleed valve on a RR Tyne engine was indeed a highly skilled job. The bleed valve was designed to lie dormant unless there was a sudden mechanical failure in either the LP section or the HP section in which case it would open to prevent a catastrophic failure. They were set up electronically by a specialist who stood on the ramp wearing a headset with a long lead going up to the engine with various wires disappearing into the aircraft (usually through the escape hatch). I believe the gentleman involved was listening in his headset to what were known as "clickers" and "clackers".
I carried out several air tests on Belfasts and I certainly do not recall getting airborne with wires hanging out of the escape hatch nor, for that matter, do I recall flying with a bloke hanging 12 feet below the engine hanging on to his head set.
Strange at it seems, this is a topic close to my heart. Apart from flying Belfasts on 53 Squadron, I was also CFI of the RAFGSA Gliding Club at Abingdon. One of my Assistant-Cat instructors was a splendid chap called Jed.S.
Now Jed was a Corporal during the week and his job was setting up the bleed valves on RR Tynes, as it so happens. Some genius at MOD decided to post Jed to the BBMF at Coltishall to work on the Lancaster. Jed knew absolutely nothing about RR Merlins or Lancasters and he did not want to go. We tried on the RAFGSA Mafia network to get his posting changed but to no avail.
Within a couple of months of his posting, 53 Squadron suffered about five LP5 failures. This came about when the bleed valve opened when it was not needed and this usually resulted in the 5th stage of the LP section being wrecked followed by serious damage to the rest of the engine.
The experts at Rolls-Royce informed us that such disasters would continue until we got someone who actually knew how to set up bleed valves properly.
I suppose it is to Jed's credit that the BBMF Lancaster is still flying.
So let us move on to the 10 Belfast formation flown on 23 December 1971.
Now some of you out there will remember that the original Belfasts were about 11% down on performance (in every respect) and that the problem was tracked down to the drag created by the design of the rear fuselage. Those aircraft were known as Belslows. About 5 Belslows were delivered. The rear end was then redesigned and that solved the problem. Those aircraft we called "Fast Backs" or "GTs". The Belslows were sent back to Short Brothers for modification.
The last Belslow to come back from Short Brothers after modification was XR364 which arrived on 53 Sqn on 03 November 1971. For years there had been a dream that it might be possible to get all 10 Belfasts airborne together. For the first time, 53 Sqn actually owned 10 Belfasts.
Two of the aircraft were on maintenance at Abingdon but it proved possible to get them sufficiently serviceable to fly just before Christmas so that they could join the other 8 aircraft which were scheduled to be back at Brize Norton from overseas.
The weather on 23 December was not particularly good with overcast cloud but all ten got airborne and formated above the main cloud deck. The photographs were taken from a Jet Provost from Little Rissington.
It has to be born in mind that none of the crews had had any chance to practice formation flying in a Belfast so it was a remarkable performance.
Why did 53 Sqn do it? Because it was possible.
So the whole production line was in formation for once and only. As we said at the end "They gave us ten, we flew ten and we gave them back ten".
I shall now try to remember how to post photographs on Prune.
As you say, you were straight out of Brat School (Halton) and I'm afraid that your memory is a little bit lacking.
Setting up the bleed valve on a RR Tyne engine was indeed a highly skilled job. The bleed valve was designed to lie dormant unless there was a sudden mechanical failure in either the LP section or the HP section in which case it would open to prevent a catastrophic failure. They were set up electronically by a specialist who stood on the ramp wearing a headset with a long lead going up to the engine with various wires disappearing into the aircraft (usually through the escape hatch). I believe the gentleman involved was listening in his headset to what were known as "clickers" and "clackers".
I carried out several air tests on Belfasts and I certainly do not recall getting airborne with wires hanging out of the escape hatch nor, for that matter, do I recall flying with a bloke hanging 12 feet below the engine hanging on to his head set.
Strange at it seems, this is a topic close to my heart. Apart from flying Belfasts on 53 Squadron, I was also CFI of the RAFGSA Gliding Club at Abingdon. One of my Assistant-Cat instructors was a splendid chap called Jed.S.
Now Jed was a Corporal during the week and his job was setting up the bleed valves on RR Tynes, as it so happens. Some genius at MOD decided to post Jed to the BBMF at Coltishall to work on the Lancaster. Jed knew absolutely nothing about RR Merlins or Lancasters and he did not want to go. We tried on the RAFGSA Mafia network to get his posting changed but to no avail.
Within a couple of months of his posting, 53 Squadron suffered about five LP5 failures. This came about when the bleed valve opened when it was not needed and this usually resulted in the 5th stage of the LP section being wrecked followed by serious damage to the rest of the engine.
The experts at Rolls-Royce informed us that such disasters would continue until we got someone who actually knew how to set up bleed valves properly.
I suppose it is to Jed's credit that the BBMF Lancaster is still flying.
So let us move on to the 10 Belfast formation flown on 23 December 1971.
Now some of you out there will remember that the original Belfasts were about 11% down on performance (in every respect) and that the problem was tracked down to the drag created by the design of the rear fuselage. Those aircraft were known as Belslows. About 5 Belslows were delivered. The rear end was then redesigned and that solved the problem. Those aircraft we called "Fast Backs" or "GTs". The Belslows were sent back to Short Brothers for modification.
The last Belslow to come back from Short Brothers after modification was XR364 which arrived on 53 Sqn on 03 November 1971. For years there had been a dream that it might be possible to get all 10 Belfasts airborne together. For the first time, 53 Sqn actually owned 10 Belfasts.
Two of the aircraft were on maintenance at Abingdon but it proved possible to get them sufficiently serviceable to fly just before Christmas so that they could join the other 8 aircraft which were scheduled to be back at Brize Norton from overseas.
The weather on 23 December was not particularly good with overcast cloud but all ten got airborne and formated above the main cloud deck. The photographs were taken from a Jet Provost from Little Rissington.
It has to be born in mind that none of the crews had had any chance to practice formation flying in a Belfast so it was a remarkable performance.
Why did 53 Sqn do it? Because it was possible.
So the whole production line was in formation for once and only. As we said at the end "They gave us ten, we flew ten and we gave them back ten".
I shall now try to remember how to post photographs on Prune.
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I thought I might add my 2 pennies worth here. From what I've read and having talked to guys involved in the Blue Streak project in the late '50s, the original requirement that became the Belfast was for an airlifter that could carry the Blue Streak IRBM, which was cancelled in 1960. Engine tests for the rocket were done at Spadeadam, but actual flight tests were carried out (after the nuclear missile had been cancelled) from Lake Hart, Woomera, Australia as the first stage of the ELDO European satellite launcher. The Blue Streaks were shipped to Aussie, but I'd imagine that had they continued in service, they would have been flown to Aussie as much faster means of transporting them around.
I think the Shorts book mentions the Blue Streak in the chapter on the Belfast.
I think the Shorts book mentions the Blue Streak in the chapter on the Belfast.
I remember seeing photos of Spadeadam; it looked more like a launch site than just a test rig.
Engine testing continued at RPE Westcott up to the late '60s. A friend of mine in the ROC worked there and told us about them actually blowing up an engine!
My one Belfast flight was in '365 from Abingdon after an ATC wing parade. 165 ATC cadets running up and down brought frequent requests from the front end to stop moving about as it upset the trim, so myself and another senior NCO stationed ourselves at either end to control the flow of cadets to/from the few windows!
Engine testing continued at RPE Westcott up to the late '60s. A friend of mine in the ROC worked there and told us about them actually blowing up an engine!
My one Belfast flight was in '365 from Abingdon after an ATC wing parade. 165 ATC cadets running up and down brought frequent requests from the front end to stop moving about as it upset the trim, so myself and another senior NCO stationed ourselves at either end to control the flow of cadets to/from the few windows!
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Cracking photo!
I don't think Spadeadam was intended on being a launch site; as far as I'm aware it was only designed as a test facility for the assembled rocket before being sent to Woomera. The reason why Aussie was used is because if the rocket failed on launch during testing the debris would land harmlessly on kangaroos and other desert wildlife, not the occupants of the north of England and Scotland. As a weapon the Blue Streak was designed to be launched from underground silos.
it looked more like a launch site than just a test rig.
JW411
Great photo' - which aircraft was our late mate Dave Carter in?
If I could have swung a posting onto the Belfast after my double-tour on Hercs I wouldn't have taken my 8yr option. The closest I got was when 53 hosted 30 (Hercs then at Fairford) at football late '70 - modesty prevents me from posting the score here!
If I could have swung a posting onto the Belfast after my double-tour on Hercs I wouldn't have taken my 8yr option. The closest I got was when 53 hosted 30 (Hercs then at Fairford) at football late '70 - modesty prevents me from posting the score here!
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 7th Oct 2012 at 11:47. Reason: 'our' twice
Chevvron - So it was you
Slight thread drift.
In my ATC Record of Service book - passenger flying log I have an entry for 3rd May 1970. Belfast XR365, AEF, 45 mins. And yes, there were few windows.
Sorry for the sad photographs taken on the day, they haven't kept well.
For the record it was 153 Slough Squadron
In my ATC Record of Service book - passenger flying log I have an entry for 3rd May 1970. Belfast XR365, AEF, 45 mins. And yes, there were few windows.
Sorry for the sad photographs taken on the day, they haven't kept well.
For the record it was 153 Slough Squadron
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Nothing to be sorry about. I think its a great photo of a great aircraft! I have also been fortunate enough to fly in one even if it was owned by Heavylift.
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JW411, your Corporal Jed was hardly the only bod who could set up bleed valves. There were plenty more on LSS at Brize who could do it on a dark freezing cold nightshift.
I was sent on an engine change at Gan (364 I think? I have photos) and on completion we had to do all the settings. The Rolls Royce graphs in the MM went from minus 30C to plus 25C. The lowest temperature ever recorded at Gan was 27C during a tropical downpour about ten years earlier, so we had to interpolate the graphs. It took four days of doing the trim runs at 2am when it was coolest to get the trims right and despatch the aircraft. (It was on a max load, carrying depth charges to Singapore)
I was sent on an engine change at Gan (364 I think? I have photos) and on completion we had to do all the settings. The Rolls Royce graphs in the MM went from minus 30C to plus 25C. The lowest temperature ever recorded at Gan was 27C during a tropical downpour about ten years earlier, so we had to interpolate the graphs. It took four days of doing the trim runs at 2am when it was coolest to get the trims right and despatch the aircraft. (It was on a max load, carrying depth charges to Singapore)
I have also been fortunate enough to fly in one even if it was owned by Heavylift.
DH
JW411
Yes, Having checked the date of the photo, I remember Dave was halfway through that awful tour as a Flt Cdr at Swinderby - his penance I guess for having had 2 tours at Changi on 48, one as a Co-pilot on Hastings and the second as a skipper on Hercs.
Back to the Belfast; one thing that has always puzzled me was why were experienced Argosy,Herc etc captains posted onto the squadron as co-pilots? I'd have thought that the 'route flying' only role of the Belfast was less demanding than the tactical and route roles of the Argosy,Hastings,Herc' etc.
Back to the Belfast; one thing that has always puzzled me was why were experienced Argosy,Herc etc captains posted onto the squadron as co-pilots? I'd have thought that the 'route flying' only role of the Belfast was less demanding than the tactical and route roles of the Argosy,Hastings,Herc' etc.
That was the way it was. If you were posted from MRT to LRT in those days (Comet, VC-10, Britannia and Belfast) you did what was, in effect, a 6-year tour consisting of three years in the right seat and three years in the left.
The only exceptions were Sqn Ldrs and Wg Cdrs who were being posted in to become flight commanders or squadron commanders.
I had already done 10 years on the Argosy (6 of them as a training captain) when I went on the Belfast but I didn't mind learning the new job in the right seat. Unlike civil aviation, there was no pay cut. We got paid by rank and not which seat we sat in.
The only exceptions were Sqn Ldrs and Wg Cdrs who were being posted in to become flight commanders or squadron commanders.
I had already done 10 years on the Argosy (6 of them as a training captain) when I went on the Belfast but I didn't mind learning the new job in the right seat. Unlike civil aviation, there was no pay cut. We got paid by rank and not which seat we sat in.
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RudolphHucker
Ah yes, I seem to remember that the instructions on the side of the jig stated that when lifting the nose of the aircraft the tail bumper wheel must not touch the ground. Not only was it touching the ground in this picture but the tyres were deflated as well! SEN 1979.
I was an engine fitter on the Belfast 'Major' servicing team based at Abingdon in the early to mid seventies. I remember the aircraft was so big (or the hangar so small) that we had to fit a hydraulic jig to the nose wheel assembly and lift the nose of the aircraft to lower the tail sufficiently to get it into the hangar.
JW411
Thanks Jock, but it does make you wonder why the RAF didn't do the same as the airlines (heaven forbid I hear their Airships cry!) and keep transport pilots as co-pilots for 2 or 3 tours, then when the time came to move into the LH seat keep them there forever.
Regards Brian
Regards Brian