EE Canberra book contributor request
Hi Steve
As Wanderoo posted,it was the Hatch 'Jettison' switch that would blow the hatch bolts.
The switch had to be set 'safe' during after landing checks but after so many years I cannot remember exactly why it was so easy to set wrongly...for obvious reasons us groundcrew never played with the damn thing
I am sure one of the Canberra aircrew on here will explain it for us.
rgds baz
As Wanderoo posted,it was the Hatch 'Jettison' switch that would blow the hatch bolts.
The switch had to be set 'safe' during after landing checks but after so many years I cannot remember exactly why it was so easy to set wrongly...for obvious reasons us groundcrew never played with the damn thing
I am sure one of the Canberra aircrew on here will explain it for us.
rgds baz
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Ahh, got it, thanks, Baz. It takes a civvie to ask a question like that. You'll all have to bear with me, I am learning, but not ashamed to ask. I'll look at the T.4 pilot's notes I have for the jettison switch - I only have a vague image of it my head but an inspection of it might make it clearer to me. And don't think for a second I am passing judgement here- just trying to understand the incident!
Escape systems are alien territory unless you have worked round them !!
In the Canberra (metal nav hatch) a/c - the nav hatch could be blown either by operating one of the navs bang seat handles OR by using the jettison switch,in the link I sent you - one can clearly see that the nav hatch has been jettisoned before a wheels up landing was attempted.
We had the same case at Cottesmore,the crew could not get the wheels down and therefore blew the hatch before the wheels up landing
rgds LR
In the Canberra (metal nav hatch) a/c - the nav hatch could be blown either by operating one of the navs bang seat handles OR by using the jettison switch,in the link I sent you - one can clearly see that the nav hatch has been jettisoned before a wheels up landing was attempted.
We had the same case at Cottesmore,the crew could not get the wheels down and therefore blew the hatch before the wheels up landing
rgds LR
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I remember seeing that photo a couple of years ago and wondering why the hatch was blown as SOP for wheels up landings. It was only until someone rightly pointed out, that if the aircraft was lying at an angle upon standstill, there was a good chance the normal cabin hatch would be blocked. Made perfect sense then.
On a Canberra-related, but altogether different theme, not sure if any of you chaps are Flight Simmers, but if so, you might be interested in this:
Flying Stations - quality payware and freeware for FSX/FS2004/SFP1 -> EE Canberra W.I.P thread
I've been building a series of Cans for the last year and a bit, they are for FS2004, slightly older sim, but still a goodie.
Now back to our regular programme...
On a Canberra-related, but altogether different theme, not sure if any of you chaps are Flight Simmers, but if so, you might be interested in this:
Flying Stations - quality payware and freeware for FSX/FS2004/SFP1 -> EE Canberra W.I.P thread
I've been building a series of Cans for the last year and a bit, they are for FS2004, slightly older sim, but still a goodie.
Now back to our regular programme...
Last edited by nazca_steve; 3rd Feb 2012 at 07:46.
Pre take off check arm hatch, disarm during after land checks. The hatch switch box has two similar, side by side switches, one of which is guarded, the unguarded switch selects hatch arm and the guarded switch blows the hatch. With the hatch armed, when the seat ejection sequence is initiated the hatch explosive bolts fire and the hatch hopefully will disappear, once it has, the seat can travel up the rails and out into atmosphere. The hatch is also able to be blown without ejection being initiated for the reasons stated by others here, ie; wheels up landing or action requiring escape via the back of the cabin.
Low speed hatch blowing is not recommended as the hatch needs enough forward speed to carry it away, if stationary the hatch will lift a small amount and then very likely fall back into the hole it just left, it's very heavy with sharp edges!!!
Low speed hatch blowing is not recommended as the hatch needs enough forward speed to carry it away, if stationary the hatch will lift a small amount and then very likely fall back into the hole it just left, it's very heavy with sharp edges!!!
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Hiya. I was the last abbo! on the PR9 back in 2000. Spent alot of time flying them over the Balkans, and Afganistan in the final days. Happy to 'talk shop if you need' Cheers
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Scorpion, thanks for the clarification on hatch detonation Thinking about that has posed a theoretical question some of you here may be able to answer. Seeing as the hatch needed slipstream to help pull it up and away, what do you think the result of hatch detonation would have been in a flat spin for instance? Would it have cleared the aircraft? On a related note, did any of you ever get into a controlled (or uncontrolled) spin on the Canberra, and if so, what were the effects of centrifugal force on you that you remember?
JP, yes indeed, I would love to talk shop with someone from the 'end of the era'! This would be excellent for the book, to have crew on from the early 50s right through to '06. Will send PM now.
JP, yes indeed, I would love to talk shop with someone from the 'end of the era'! This would be excellent for the book, to have crew on from the early 50s right through to '06. Will send PM now.
Rudder Lock Party
Hmmm...this thread has dredged up a few semi forgotten things
The canberra and its large unpowered rudder had a wind limit for taxying (20knots ?) because it had a hand operated brake lever and used the rudder pedal movement for differential braking (no luxury like nosewheel steering !!) through the Brake Control Valve.
Before engine start the rudder lock was turned upside down - because on that side of the lock was a cut out to allow the rudder tab to move and hence allow rudder pedal movement but with the rudder locked neutral.
Then the 'volunteer' rudder lock party would follow the a/c to the (at Cottesmore) ORP where the a/c would park with engines running.
The 2 party members would then take a set of 'A' frame steps under an engine (aft of u/c leg) and - staying very close to the fuselage would take the steps to the tail and one of em would climb the steps to remove the rudder lock !
Then the rudder lock was carried forward and (after checking that the DV [direct vision] window was open) we would open the crew door and stow the lock in the cockpit,usually with a wave or grin from the pilot !
Just imagine the risk assessment on that nowadays LOL
Although I do not remember doing it that often...definitely not my fave job...Hot and smelly as invariably the a/c was parked crosswind
The canberra and its large unpowered rudder had a wind limit for taxying (20knots ?) because it had a hand operated brake lever and used the rudder pedal movement for differential braking (no luxury like nosewheel steering !!) through the Brake Control Valve.
Before engine start the rudder lock was turned upside down - because on that side of the lock was a cut out to allow the rudder tab to move and hence allow rudder pedal movement but with the rudder locked neutral.
Then the 'volunteer' rudder lock party would follow the a/c to the (at Cottesmore) ORP where the a/c would park with engines running.
The 2 party members would then take a set of 'A' frame steps under an engine (aft of u/c leg) and - staying very close to the fuselage would take the steps to the tail and one of em would climb the steps to remove the rudder lock !
Then the rudder lock was carried forward and (after checking that the DV [direct vision] window was open) we would open the crew door and stow the lock in the cockpit,usually with a wave or grin from the pilot !
Just imagine the risk assessment on that nowadays LOL
Although I do not remember doing it that often...definitely not my fave job...Hot and smelly as invariably the a/c was parked crosswind
25 Knot crosswind limit, both take off and landing, 20 knot for banner towing runways over 150feet wide, 15Knots for less than 150feet. Maximum tailwind component 5 Knots.
PR9 may be different, don't have my FRC's to hand
PR9 may be different, don't have my FRC's to hand
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Thanks for the rudder lock story, Baz. Thinking about the cockpit has brought up another loosely related topic. Can anyone here describe the procedure of moving from the nav cabin down to the nose position in-flight. Such as what kind of drills you had for emergency movement, what kind of time it took to shift positions, whether a portable oxygen bottle was needed or if you simply hooked into a regulator down in the nose cone. Any hassles or good anecdotes related to this movement would be good for the book. I have done it myself a couple of times, but that was of course on the ground, normal temperature and with no flying kit on, and I found it hard enough! Would love to hear tales from those that did it for real.
ATB,
Steve
ATB,
Steve
The Bomb Aimers posn in the B2 nose definitely had an Oxy regulator.
I think there was also an oxy reg for the map readers fold down seat (Rumble Seat) but S63 will be able to confirm/deny !
rgds baz
P.S. hope you got my email ok,have been away since sunday !
I think there was also an oxy reg for the map readers fold down seat (Rumble Seat) but S63 will be able to confirm/deny !
rgds baz
P.S. hope you got my email ok,have been away since sunday !
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Yes, got it thanks, Baz, it was superb and has been duly added to the manuscript for editing. Excellent detail and thanks also for the photos, I will clean them up in Photoshop and send back for your records. It's just been a tad busy of late here at work and I have not had a chance to write a decent reply...same goes for Altercumulus on here, who sent me an excellent email.
In general, a big thanks for everyone who has emailed, PM'd and posted so far - I value everything and am sorting it all out steadily... I will keep 'feeding' questions so please keep it coming is all I ask!
Baz, very quickly back to the oxy reg, bit of a daft question this, but in moving from the nav seat to the prone position, how did you manage at high alt before you plugged into the nose cone reg? Portable bottle or 'hold your breath?' I know it's not far as the crow flies between the two positions, but I was curious regardless.
Steve
In general, a big thanks for everyone who has emailed, PM'd and posted so far - I value everything and am sorting it all out steadily... I will keep 'feeding' questions so please keep it coming is all I ask!
Baz, very quickly back to the oxy reg, bit of a daft question this, but in moving from the nav seat to the prone position, how did you manage at high alt before you plugged into the nose cone reg? Portable bottle or 'hold your breath?' I know it's not far as the crow flies between the two positions, but I was curious regardless.
Steve
Not sure Steve...managed to avoid flying in B2's ...I was offered a few trips in em.
I am sure one of the aircrew will supply details for you,but it would probably depend on altitude,if the cabin is pressurised then the the 'Cabin Altitude' is lower than aircraft altitude,jet a/c have a cabin altimeter to confirm cabin altitude and hence to confirm if the pressurisation is working ok.
On the a/c I presently work on...I believe if the a/c is at 40,000' then the cabin altitude is approx 21,000'.
So I guess at lower altitudes one could move around easily as long as pressurisation is ok.
The stuff I emailed was mostly just for background info,sorry about the quality of the photos,I had more but cannot find them,but there are some nice pics on the net and will point them out to you soonish if you have not already seen them !
rgds baz
...I was offered a few trips in em.I am sure one of the aircrew will supply details for you,but it would probably depend on altitude,if the cabin is pressurised then the the 'Cabin Altitude' is lower than aircraft altitude,jet a/c have a cabin altimeter to confirm cabin altitude and hence to confirm if the pressurisation is working ok.
On the a/c I presently work on...I believe if the a/c is at 40,000' then the cabin altitude is approx 21,000'.
So I guess at lower altitudes one could move around easily as long as pressurisation is ok.
The stuff I emailed was mostly just for background info,sorry about the quality of the photos,I had more but cannot find them,but there are some nice pics on the net and will point them out to you soonish if you have not already seen them !
rgds baz
In 1962 I was responsible for the planning and organisation of equipping various RAAF aircraft with a special canopy breaker tool. This followed several fatal accidents with F80 Shooting Stars in the USAF where high speed aborts resulted in over-runs. Ejecting was not an option due old type ejection seat and when in a few cases the aircraft was on fire the unfortunate pilots were unable to open the canopy due damage. The USAF then designed specialised canopy breaker knives with which the pilot could bash his way through the canopy.
At my request the USAF kindly sent us the plans of the knife and after testing them on a Vampire and Sabre canopy we installed them in the cockpit of Sabres, CT4's and Macchi's. Soon afterwards, the canopy breaker saved the life of a Sabre pilot who hit birds on take off at Ubon, Thailand and forced landed. His canopy jammed partially open and the aircraft caught fire. He used the knife to break the canopy and got out safely.
When I proposed the canopy breaker knife should also be installed in the Canberra bomber, the idea was promptly scotched by a Wing Commander at RAAF Dept of Air, who said the knife was no needed as the canopy had explosive bolts to blow the canopy on the ground. But what if the explosive bolts failed to fire?
I wondered at the time if electrical power was needed to actuate the explosive bolts and if the crash landing damaged the electrical contacts or power was cut, the bolts could not be fired. So the canopy breaker knife never went into Canberra. I hope lives were not lost because of that short-sighted personal decision.
At my request the USAF kindly sent us the plans of the knife and after testing them on a Vampire and Sabre canopy we installed them in the cockpit of Sabres, CT4's and Macchi's. Soon afterwards, the canopy breaker saved the life of a Sabre pilot who hit birds on take off at Ubon, Thailand and forced landed. His canopy jammed partially open and the aircraft caught fire. He used the knife to break the canopy and got out safely.
When I proposed the canopy breaker knife should also be installed in the Canberra bomber, the idea was promptly scotched by a Wing Commander at RAAF Dept of Air, who said the knife was no needed as the canopy had explosive bolts to blow the canopy on the ground. But what if the explosive bolts failed to fire?
I wondered at the time if electrical power was needed to actuate the explosive bolts and if the crash landing damaged the electrical contacts or power was cut, the bolts could not be fired. So the canopy breaker knife never went into Canberra. I hope lives were not lost because of that short-sighted personal decision.
All electrical power for the ejection sequence comes from battery not aircraft power supply so in the event of a loss of electrical power the hatch and canopy bolts will still activate. There are of course three routes out of a Canberra, exit/entrance door, rear hatch and ejection seat. The double skin canopy on the Canberra would require an axe to break it, a knife would be useless, a crash axe is stowed inside next to the entrance door. The pilots canopy explosive bolts were deactivated many years ago as it was found on ejection the lower leading edge of the canopy could "fold under" decapitating the pilot so the seat now fires through the canopy.
"Baz, very quickly back to the oxy reg, bit of a daft question this, but in moving from the nav seat to the prone position, how did you manage at high alt before you plugged into the nose cone reg? Portable bottle or 'hold your breath?' I know it's not far as the crow flies between the two positions, but I was curious regardless."
If you are young and agile no problem! There is a long oxy pipe available for moving around and yes there is a regulator up front. Getting back to the rear cabin in an emergency and strapping back in can be a problem it depends how much time you have and how quickly you can do up enough straps to eject. There are 19 possible combinations of connections to be made, straps, plugs, dinghy etc but not all are needed to eject. The effects of violent aerodynamic forces however could make life very difficult indeed.
If you are young and agile no problem! There is a long oxy pipe available for moving around and yes there is a regulator up front. Getting back to the rear cabin in an emergency and strapping back in can be a problem it depends how much time you have and how quickly you can do up enough straps to eject. There are 19 possible combinations of connections to be made, straps, plugs, dinghy etc but not all are needed to eject. The effects of violent aerodynamic forces however could make life very difficult indeed.
Last edited by scorpion63; 9th Feb 2012 at 12:36. Reason: error
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Scorpion - that is extremely interesting about deactivation of the pilot's canopy explosive bolts. In all my reading I have never come across that, and I don't believe it is mentioned in the various Pilot's Notes I've read. I am not disputing you, but it is just an interesting and suprising revelation. So with that said, what would be the consequences of ejecting using the leg handle rather than the face blind handles? Would your bone dome offer enough protection punching through the glass? I am assuming the seat would make the initial 'hole', but perhaps you can clarify.
Thanks for the oxy reg/pipe detail, sounds like quite a process moving around the cabin, and I damn sure would not want to try this in a hurry.
Thanks for the oxy reg/pipe detail, sounds like quite a process moving around the cabin, and I damn sure would not want to try this in a hurry.
The seat pan handle is the method of choice as it is quicker and easier to get too, the top of the seat will make a very big hole in the canopy and shatter it.
Not all Canberra's have the canopy cartridges removed and as is always the case with the Canberra no two are the same.
Not all Canberra's have the canopy cartridges removed and as is always the case with the Canberra no two are the same.
The double skin canopy on the Canberra would require an axe to break it, a knife would be useless,
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Centaurus,
many thanks for sharing those details about the canopy breaker knife and the decision not to adopt it. Seems very odd considering it had already proven its worth, as surely it would not have been such an expense to equip aircrew with it despite the explosive bolts. I wonder now if this knife is the same knife-looking object I have seen in photos of Argentine Canberra crews, as shown in the photo below. I always thought this possibly some kind of survival kit knife but does this look anything like the canopy breaker knife? My suspicion is that this may look a little small for the job...
(PM also coming your way)
many thanks for sharing those details about the canopy breaker knife and the decision not to adopt it. Seems very odd considering it had already proven its worth, as surely it would not have been such an expense to equip aircrew with it despite the explosive bolts. I wonder now if this knife is the same knife-looking object I have seen in photos of Argentine Canberra crews, as shown in the photo below. I always thought this possibly some kind of survival kit knife but does this look anything like the canopy breaker knife? My suspicion is that this may look a little small for the job...
(PM also coming your way)