The Battle of Britain to be Re-Made?
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The Battle of Britain to be Re-Made?
Robert Towne To Re-Tell THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN
I hope he tells it well!! But it's a great idea because too many of todays youngsters have not even heard of it!
I hope he tells it well!! But it's a great idea because too many of todays youngsters have not even heard of it!
Originally Posted by Ken Scott
Let's hope that the Spitfires won't all be flown by cigar chewing Americans, whilst the real winners are made out to be the Royal Navy......
Or are you referring to this?
Daily Telegraph: Battle of Britain was won at sea. Discuss
Remade? I don't think so somehow;
I can see it now...
Cheryl Cole as Section Officer Harvey - "Why, eye, divvinya shout at me Mr Warwick!"
Allan Carr as WO (Mr) Warwick - "Earrr, Chezah put that fag out..."
Paul O'Grady as ACM Hugh Dowding - "Oi Winnie, we've run out of planes, like"
Tom Cruise as Squadron Leader Canfield - "Ops, my engine is over heating and so am I; I either launch or I blow up. Plus where's my booster cushion I can hardly see out!"
Ricky Gervaise as Squadron Leader Skipper - "How many hours on Spits, Simon? Let's make it 5 before Jerry has you for breakfast...yeah, did you see what I did there, I ridiculed a Pilot Officer, yeah, have you seen my space invader dance?"
Mark Almond as Sgt Pilot Andy - "All I got was a belly full of..."
Hugh Grant as Squadron Leader Harvey - "Never again, or you'll be spread all over the countryside like Duchy Original Sandringham Strawberry Preserve"
Maybe even Rik Mayall as Squadron Commander the Lord Flasheart???
Still, there's enough Spittys, Hurris and 109s. But what about the Heinkels?
LJ
Cheryl Cole as Section Officer Harvey - "Why, eye, divvinya shout at me Mr Warwick!"
Allan Carr as WO (Mr) Warwick - "Earrr, Chezah put that fag out..."
Paul O'Grady as ACM Hugh Dowding - "Oi Winnie, we've run out of planes, like"
Tom Cruise as Squadron Leader Canfield - "Ops, my engine is over heating and so am I; I either launch or I blow up. Plus where's my booster cushion I can hardly see out!"
Ricky Gervaise as Squadron Leader Skipper - "How many hours on Spits, Simon? Let's make it 5 before Jerry has you for breakfast...yeah, did you see what I did there, I ridiculed a Pilot Officer, yeah, have you seen my space invader dance?"
Mark Almond as Sgt Pilot Andy - "All I got was a belly full of..."
Hugh Grant as Squadron Leader Harvey - "Never again, or you'll be spread all over the countryside like Duchy Original Sandringham Strawberry Preserve"
Maybe even Rik Mayall as Squadron Commander the Lord Flasheart???
Still, there's enough Spittys, Hurris and 109s. But what about the Heinkels?
LJ
Interesting that the picture of the screenwriter is shown alongside one of a formation of Boulton Paul Defiants - curious choice 
If he has the Battle of Britain being won by the Defiant he really will be re-writing history!
If he has the Battle of Britain being won by the Defiant he really will be re-writing history!
The Battle of the Atlantic lasted from 3 Sep 1939 to 8 May 1945 while the Battle of Britain was a short episode between 10 Jul and 31 Oct in 1940. However, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force participated in both.
Or are you referring to this?
Or are you referring to this?
Daily Telegraph: Battle of Britain was won at sea. Discuss
I suspect that Ken is indeed referring to the episode that ensured that Brian James lost any chance of having any credibility as a serious military historian as a result of that shameful piece of 'analysis' which would've left a News of the World journalist breathless at the misrepresentations it contained.
Not sure that Battle of Britain is really ripe for a remake - if Towne takes a slightly different tack and presents the Big Wing controversy differently with Leigh-Mallory as more than a one dimensional character (for instance), or brings out the role of Bomber and Coastal Commands (difficult, but not impossible with CGI), then they might be on to something. And, of course, there won't be the years spent agonising over what to call the dog...
busters?
Originally Posted by Archimedes
Originally Posted by FODPlod
Or are you referring to this? Daily Telegraph: Battle of Britain was won at sea. Discuss
).
Pray god it's nothing like this is going to be;
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I was indeed referring to the theory that the Navy 'won' the Battle of Britian (how do ships win an air battle?)
Interesting that
believes that it was the threat of Britain's seapower that deterred invasion rather than the RAF.
And,
Tell that to the Prince of Wales & the Repulse.
But that's the great thing about revisionist history, you can say pretty much what you like in the certain knowledge that you'll get headlines and anything you say can't be totally disproven because it can't be tested.
Hitler gave up on his invasion plans because the Luftwaffe lost the air battle and it was getting too late in the season to cross the Channel with his invasion barges. Had he won the BofB he might have subsequently been deterred by the RN but it never reached that point because the RAF had already triumphed.
To quote that annoying Meercat:
Interesting that
Dr Andrew Gordon, the head of maritime history at the staff college
And,
Even if the RAF had been defeated the fleet would still have been able to defeat any invasion because fast ships at sea could easily manoeuvre and "were pretty safe from air attack".
But that's the great thing about revisionist history, you can say pretty much what you like in the certain knowledge that you'll get headlines and anything you say can't be totally disproven because it can't be tested.
Hitler gave up on his invasion plans because the Luftwaffe lost the air battle and it was getting too late in the season to cross the Channel with his invasion barges. Had he won the BofB he might have subsequently been deterred by the RN but it never reached that point because the RAF had already triumphed.
To quote that annoying Meercat:
Simples!
Here we go...
Tell that to the Prince of Wales & the Repulse.
POW and REPULSE were sunk in Dec 1941, more than a year after the Battle of Britain. They were totally bereft of air cover, saturated by Japanese aircraft that specialised in attacking ships (they'd taken a leaf out of the Royal Navy's book) and hit by six (possibly eight) torpedoes out of 49 launched. The battleships were able to avoid the other 40+ torpedoes aimed at them.
Interestingly, the first 25 Japanese aircraft dropped 17 x 500 kg bombs and 16 x 250 kg bombs on the battleships but only achieved one hit with a 250 kg bomb. This started a small fire on the hangar deck of REPULSE. Several high level bombers also straddled the battleships during the later torpedo attacks but, again, only achieved one hit. This bomb fell amongst the wounded gathered in POW's hangar causing extensive casualties but neither of the two bombs that actually struck the battleships penetrated their armour.
Earlier, nine aircraft had mistaken one of the three escorting destroyers for a battleship. They each dropped their 500 kg armour-piercing bomb but all nine missed their target. The destroyers went unscathed and rescued the survivors from the battleships but a supporting carrier might have made all the difference, especially as the Japanese bombers had no fighter escort owing to the distances involved.
So how many effective torpedo bombers did the Luftwaffe have in 1940? They'd have needed hundreds to achieve any success, plus other types of aircraft to deal with the scores of MTBs and armed auxiliaries that would have made mincemeat out of any invasion force, most of which would have comprised lumbering barges under tow. Operational German destroyers had been all but wiped out at Narvik and they had few other warships of any description. Think how many resources went into the Allied invasion of Normandy: 5,000 ships and 195,700 Allied naval and merchant navy personnel on D-Day alone.
The Ju 87 might have proved useful as a dive bomber against static targets in a relatively benign environment but it was lousy against ships. It wasn't something their pilots were trained for, either. As for high level bombers, the B-17s later showed their ineffectiveness against ships which is why the USN concentrated on TBDs and dive bombers. No PGMs in those days and many of you will know the CEPs of dumb bombs. Throughout the war, the amount of our shipping lost to aerial attack was miniscule in comparison with our losses from U-boats and mines.
I concede that our victory in the Battle of Britain put paid to any German invasion attempt, no matter how disastrous, but I still can't help wondering how things would have turned out if we'd drowned or captured the cream of the Wehrmacht so early in the war.
Next?
Originally Posted by Ken Scott
Even if the RAF had been defeated the fleet would still have been able to defeat any invasion because fast ships at sea could easily manoeuvre and "were pretty safe from air attack".
Interestingly, the first 25 Japanese aircraft dropped 17 x 500 kg bombs and 16 x 250 kg bombs on the battleships but only achieved one hit with a 250 kg bomb. This started a small fire on the hangar deck of REPULSE. Several high level bombers also straddled the battleships during the later torpedo attacks but, again, only achieved one hit. This bomb fell amongst the wounded gathered in POW's hangar causing extensive casualties but neither of the two bombs that actually struck the battleships penetrated their armour.
Earlier, nine aircraft had mistaken one of the three escorting destroyers for a battleship. They each dropped their 500 kg armour-piercing bomb but all nine missed their target. The destroyers went unscathed and rescued the survivors from the battleships but a supporting carrier might have made all the difference, especially as the Japanese bombers had no fighter escort owing to the distances involved.
So how many effective torpedo bombers did the Luftwaffe have in 1940? They'd have needed hundreds to achieve any success, plus other types of aircraft to deal with the scores of MTBs and armed auxiliaries that would have made mincemeat out of any invasion force, most of which would have comprised lumbering barges under tow. Operational German destroyers had been all but wiped out at Narvik and they had few other warships of any description. Think how many resources went into the Allied invasion of Normandy: 5,000 ships and 195,700 Allied naval and merchant navy personnel on D-Day alone.
The Ju 87 might have proved useful as a dive bomber against static targets in a relatively benign environment but it was lousy against ships. It wasn't something their pilots were trained for, either. As for high level bombers, the B-17s later showed their ineffectiveness against ships which is why the USN concentrated on TBDs and dive bombers. No PGMs in those days and many of you will know the CEPs of dumb bombs. Throughout the war, the amount of our shipping lost to aerial attack was miniscule in comparison with our losses from U-boats and mines.
I concede that our victory in the Battle of Britain put paid to any German invasion attempt, no matter how disastrous, but I still can't help wondering how things would have turned out if we'd drowned or captured the cream of the Wehrmacht so early in the war.
Next?
No Torpedo planes for Op SEALION - what rubbish! Ever heard of the Heinkel 115?
I am able to offer you the following piece of almost forgotten WW2 history, which actually happened near Norwegian coast on 9 April 1940.
On that day, at the very first light, Luftwaffe’s Küstenfligergruppen (Coastal Reconnaissance Groups) swept the area between Bergen and the Orkneys with 28 He 115 seaplanes, searching for British ships. They did their job tremendously well, because they had successfully located two major British naval groups: The first one – essentially main force of the Home Fleet - with two battleships, six cruisers, and numerous destroyers in protection screen northwest of Bergen, and the second one, with nine cruisers and eleven destroyers to the port’s west-southwest.
Being in possession of this highly important knowledge, command of the Fliegerkorps X mounted a large anti-shipping strike, consisting of 41 He 111 from KG 26 and 47 Ju 88s from KG 30. The leading formation of Ju 88s found the second group (cruiser force), and ferociously dived upon the british ships, sinking the destroyer GURKHA and heavily damaging both HMS SOUTHAMPTON and HMS GALATEA cruisers. Further bomber formations found and attacked the Home Fleet, directly hitting the HMS RODNEY – the flagship of the fleet – with a bomb that failed to penetrate the Rodney’s thick deck armor, while three other cruisers were damaged by near misses.
Commanding officer of the British naval forces, Commander in Chief of the Home Fleet admiral Charles M. Forbes, after 7 hours of factual battle and with 4 German Ju 88’s downed by British naval AAA decided to retire out of range of Fliegercorps X due to lack of aerial protection and evident shortage of AA ammunition.
So might you change your opinion on your facts?
BTW, here is a picture of a He115 with a Torpedo which was operational from 1937.
I am able to offer you the following piece of almost forgotten WW2 history, which actually happened near Norwegian coast on 9 April 1940.
On that day, at the very first light, Luftwaffe’s Küstenfligergruppen (Coastal Reconnaissance Groups) swept the area between Bergen and the Orkneys with 28 He 115 seaplanes, searching for British ships. They did their job tremendously well, because they had successfully located two major British naval groups: The first one – essentially main force of the Home Fleet - with two battleships, six cruisers, and numerous destroyers in protection screen northwest of Bergen, and the second one, with nine cruisers and eleven destroyers to the port’s west-southwest.
Being in possession of this highly important knowledge, command of the Fliegerkorps X mounted a large anti-shipping strike, consisting of 41 He 111 from KG 26 and 47 Ju 88s from KG 30. The leading formation of Ju 88s found the second group (cruiser force), and ferociously dived upon the british ships, sinking the destroyer GURKHA and heavily damaging both HMS SOUTHAMPTON and HMS GALATEA cruisers. Further bomber formations found and attacked the Home Fleet, directly hitting the HMS RODNEY – the flagship of the fleet – with a bomb that failed to penetrate the Rodney’s thick deck armor, while three other cruisers were damaged by near misses.
Commanding officer of the British naval forces, Commander in Chief of the Home Fleet admiral Charles M. Forbes, after 7 hours of factual battle and with 4 German Ju 88’s downed by British naval AAA decided to retire out of range of Fliegercorps X due to lack of aerial protection and evident shortage of AA ammunition.
So might you change your opinion on your facts?
BTW, here is a picture of a He115 with a Torpedo which was operational from 1937.
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I would also draw the readers' attention to the fate of the Mediterranean Fleet at the hands of the Luftwaffe in May 1941. Not many torpedo planes there either.
Having said that, the actions of the fleet were truely magnificent in rescuing a good proportion of Force W from the island. As Admiral Cunningham said on being advised that heavy losses would result from the evacuation, "It takes 3 years to build a ship - it takes 300 years to build a tradition. We will go". Where are these leaders today?
Having said that, the actions of the fleet were truely magnificent in rescuing a good proportion of Force W from the island. As Admiral Cunningham said on being advised that heavy losses would result from the evacuation, "It takes 3 years to build a ship - it takes 300 years to build a tradition. We will go". Where are these leaders today?
Then so is having it won by the Spitfire is probably pushing things a bit. Did not Hurricanes shoot down something like twice as many German aircraft as the Spitfire.
Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz
No Torpedo planes for Op SEALION - what rubbish! Ever heard of the Heinkel 115?... On that day, at the very first light, Luftwaffe’s Küstenfligergruppen (Coastal Reconnaissance Groups) swept the area between Bergen and the Orkneys with 28 He 115 seaplanes
Originally Posted by FODPlod
So how many effective torpedo bombers did the Luftwaffe have in 1940? They'd have needed hundreds to achieve any success.
Some people underestimate the number of naval units (link) the Luftwaffe would have had to neutralise for any invasion to succeed. Even MTBs, MLs, armed yachts and the dozens of armed trawlers with 12 pdrs, 4 inch, 20mm and Lewis guns would have posed a significant threat to any German invasion barges. They would probably have achieved more by capsizing the barges with their wakes or ramming them. How much less effective do you think the Luftwaffe would have been once the cats were in among the pigeons?
Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz
So might you change your opinion on your facts?
Next?