1953 BOAC Canadair C-4 Argonaut incident

[The AvgasDinosaur]

In the reports into the crash of G-ALHG on 4th June 1967 at Stockport reference is made to an incident involving a BOAC Argonaut in 1953 which was reported to Canadair but was not passed to then current or subsequent C-4 operators.
Can anyone identify the aircraft involved and or the date, location and nature of the incident and or clarify whether any report was published.
I've tried both of Larry Milbury's books without success.
Your time and trouble appreciated.
Be lucky
David Truman "The AvgasDinosaur"

P.S. If mods think this should be in aviation safety forum, please relocate it, thanks.

[norwich]

David. Can I assume you have seen the ASN data base on C-4 ... DC4M etc ??

Keith.

Aviation Safety Network >

[MX Trainer]

The accident you are talking about is is well documented in Air Disasters - Chapter 18 - Book #4 by Macarthur Job. - Australian

It is titled "The Tragedy Of the Disappearing Fuel.

There is some information regarding "Previous Incidents" that pertains to what they found and in the Contributory causes section it does list the:

"Failure of British Midland Airways to recognize from previous incidents and Argonauts fuel logs, the possibility of inadvertent fuel transfer in the air."

and

"Failure of other operators of DC4s-4s and Argonauts whose experience had revealed the possibility of inadvertent fuel transfer in flight, to inform the Air Registration Board and the Accident Investigation Branch, in order that this information could be communicated to other operators of the aircraft types."

Report talks about BOAC and Aer Lingus had experience in in 1953 and 1954 that inadvertent fuel transfer was quite possible - but it doesn't mention that there was a previous accident.

I know that the identity of the aircraft is what you are after but this is as close as I can get!!

So if Mr. Job had this info it is possible that it is in his research notes.

Link to a Bio - he is a very interesting person.
Macarthur Job

I don't know if the books are still available so if you want a scan of the info let me know and I can send it your way.

Volume 4 is harder to get than the first 3 - for some reason. I see 3 available on ThugsBay" for about $95 - 105 US - bought mine new for $25.25 AU - go figure - I could make 400% return on my investment!!


FYI - ISBN 1 875671 48X Copyright 2001


Also I seem to recall that there was a mention of the problem in "Fate Is The Hunter" but I might be wrong. If I can find my copy - will see if I can find mention of it.

Regards,
Mx

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote from norwich

David. Can I assume you have seen the ASN data base on C-4 ... DC4M etc ??

Keith.

Yes I have previously checked there, there are none shown for 1953 and only two for BOAC neither of which are fuel related.
Idris ASN Aircraft accident Canadair C-4 Argonaut G-ALHL Tripoli-Idris Airport (TIP)
and Kano ASN Aircraft accident Canadair C-4 Argonaut G-ALHE Kano International Airport (KAN)
Thanks for the link and your time and trouble.
Be lucky
David

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote from MX Trainer

...............Report talks about BOAC and Aer Lingus had experience in in 1953 and 1954 that inadvertent fuel transfer was quite possible - but it doesn't mention that there was a previous accident.............................

I have that volume of MacArthur Job's books. There is a passing reference to "Other British Isles operators of DC-4 and Argonaut aircraft, including BOAC and Aer Lingus, had found from experience in 1953 and 1954 that inadvertent transfer was possible" This does not however provide any details. The Aer Lingus incident is very puzzling as they did not operate any DC-4 related aircraft until their Carvairs were delivered from March 1963.

The best example of a precursor event I can find is the Starways DC-4/C-54 at Dublin 19th September 1961 G-ARJY
ASN Aircraft accident Douglas DC-4 G-ARJY Dublin Airport (DUB)
I also have the Board of Trade ( AAIB) reports for Stockport and find "Correspondence between BOAC and Canadair in 1953 and 1954 shows that BOAC discovered about inadvertent fuel transfer in the hard way, but without disaster, and after a special drive on rigging were satisfied that the problem was manageable." No reference at all in the Dublin report.
Thanks for your time and trouble.

Be lucky
David

[avionic type]

Hope this does not "muddy the waters"wasn't the problem that the flight engineers closed or opened the manually operated tranfer fuel cocks to what they thought was the correct position ,but, there was a gap from where the the lever was and the actual correct position of the valve ?I faintly remember a film showing showing the gap in the cockpit . if this a load of rubbish please forgive a failing memory

[Proplinerman]

Avionic type, you are spot on: I remember seeing a film on TV many years ago, about the Stockport crash and it specifically showed this point, the air crash investigators having found it by exhaustive testing of another BM C4. And, as Dave Truman points out, reference was made in this programme to BOAC having discovered this problem in the early 1950s, informing Canadair, but Canadair apparently not sending out a warning to operators.

I'd love to see that programme again-anyone know where I can get a copy? Tho I'm going to try You Tube now for possible excerpts-you can find almost anything you're looking for there. Will post a link here if I find anything.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote from avionic type

Hope this does not "muddy the waters"wasn't the problem that the flight engineers closed or opened the manually operated tranfer fuel cocks to what they thought was the correct position ,but, there was a gap from where the the lever was and the actual correct position of the valve ?I faintly remember a film showing showing the gap in the cockpit

Almost a bulls eye, there was a ground engineer on board to handle turnarounds away from base, but the Argonauts were configured for two crew operation. Part of the approach checks involved checking that the cross feeds were closed, which the crew believed they already were, however tragically in reaching across to touch confirm this they actually closed them about the thickness of a ball point pen and thus shut off the fuel to engines 3 & 4. Being unaware of what they had done they could not use the reaction "undo that which you had last done" as one would normally do to restore an abnormal situation. There is little doubt that had this occurred at 15,000 as opposed to 1,500 feet a solution would have been found. Note that no.3 was windmilling at the time of impact. Part way through the restart procedure ??
The work load must have been truly horrendous, in fact on the reconstruction handling flight the pilot was using so much effort to maintain course that the seat frame was bent by body pressure alone.
The BOAC 1953 incident was reported to both the Air Registration Board and Canadair but not passed on, neither did BOAC pass on information when they subsequently sold the Argonauts. The present day mandatory reporting of incidents as well as accidents had its genesis in 'HG.
Be lucky
David

[MX Trainer]

AvgasDinosaur

I think I was thinking about this story - rather than Fate Is The Hunter

China airlift -- the Hump: China's ... - Google Books

I have a bit of time on the DC4 - worked for a company in Manitoba Canada one summer - spent most of my time changing props between it and the company DC 3 as we had no spare prop and one was out for overhaul.

Got really good at changing props that summer as we would change the prop to the 4 for the morning trip - when it got back - the 3 would be loaded - so change the prop to the 3 - then back to the 4 - etc.....

I only did a couple of flights in the old girl - don't remember any drama of any kind - but crews were ex forces guys with what I thought were billions of hours!!! LOL The 1970's were a blast for a young guy in this industry!!

I think it is very sad to realize that information so critical to the operation of the aircraft was not delivered to the crews. Not the last time something like this has happened - The F28 crash in Dryden Ontario was repeated pretty much exactly a year later with the same results - crews on the aircraft not having info from the effects of icing on the aircraft type.

Regards,

Truc

[MX Trainer]

AvgasDinosaur

Just a quick observation!!


I wonder if it is possible that the report had the dates wrong - says BOAC and Aer Lingus in 1953 and 1954 - what if the dates should have been 1953 for the BOAC issue and 1964 for the Aer Lingus ones - that would put it right in the timeframe that Aer Lingus operated the Carvairs.

And if Aer Lingus crews were not so familiar with the aircraft - that they ran into the problem as well??

If that was the case then the identity of the aircraft at Aer Lingus should be easy as I think they only operated 3 or 4 of them.

Just a thought!!

Regards,

Truc

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Thanks for that.
I did wonder my self but I don't think it very likely that the Board of Trade would make such an error in an official report, and repeat it a total of three times in that report.
It is interesting to note that in Patrick Dean's seminal book on the Carvair page 80 next to last paragraph, "Irish specifications required the Carvair fuel systems to be uniform on all ships. Aviation Traders was acutely aware of fuel system problems since they were not the same on any of the DC-4 conversion candidates to date. Engineers were already involved in standardising the Carvair fuel systems but in order to meet the Aer Lingus requirement the fuel selectors were permanently set on tank to engine." [My emphasis.]
To put this extract into context the problem ATEL were grappling with was almost every variant of C-54/DC-4 had differing fuel tank systems some with as many as eight wing tanks some with four, bag tanks, rigid tanks, belly tanks etc front spar plumbing rear spar plumbing. Not the inadvertent fuel transfer problem that lies at the root of HG's demise.
Your time and trouble appreciated.
Be lucky,
David

P.S. I realise that this quoted paragraph shows the Aer Lingus Carvair involvement but there are three references in the report to BOAC and Aer Lingus relating to 1953 and 1954.