St. Athan - Sound Barrier, June 1950 at the latest

[glosgirl]

I hope I'm on the right forum this time, having gone to the wrong place at first. Heartfelt apologies if I'm still in the wrong place. I can only plead newbie idiocy.

My question is - Can anyone help me with sound barrier information please? My father was stationed at RAF St. Athan from 1947 to June 1950, and I remember being taken to an airshow on the base at which the sound barrier was broken. The event cannot have been after June 1950, because that's when we moved to RAF Castle Archdale. Does anyone know which aircraft and pilot this might have been?

[stepwilk]

I don't know the answer, but I'm sure somebody will. You're in the right place--very knowledgeabe crowd.

[John Farley]

glosgirl

Tricky one that. You clearly have reasons for fixing the date of your visit to a St Athan airshow.

The trouble is that the first public demonstrations of the sonic boom were made at the Farnborough SBAC show in September 1952. (Hunter, Swift and DH110)

The first sonic boom in the UK was made by Flt Lt Taffy Eccleston an RAE test pilot on the Aerodynamics Research Flight at Farnborough some months earlier (perhaps even late 1951) when flying a US F86 Sabre that was on loan to RAE. Taffy sadly died in the prototype Victor a couple of years later but I have just spoken (for a second opinion) to one of his fellow test pilots at Farnborough who knew Taffy well and he confirmed what I have reported here.

So history is puzzled as to how a sonic boom could have been heard at St Athan in public prior to June 1950

Regards

JF

[pulse1]

I was at a BoB display at St Athans sometime in the very early 50's when a USAF F86 attempted a supersonic run. Unfortunately he apparently mistook nearby Llandow for St Athans and had slowed up by the time he realised his mistake.

[glosgirl]

sound barrier at St. Athan

Hello again. All I know about hearing the sound barrier broken at St. Athan is that my father was stationed there from some time in 1947 until June 1950, and that I was present at an air show on the base. I can recall sitting on the grass with my mother and all the other families. I could see the control tower and watched all the flying displays, including one aircraft that flew very low and fast over ours heads and disappeared past the control tower. I'm not saying this was the aircraft that broke the sound barrier, because I don't imagine it was. We were all waiting, and then we heard the distinctive boom noise high above us and everyone knew the sound barrier had been broken. I don't remember actually seeing the aircraft in question, but I do recall my father saying that was what had happened, so it wasn't a mistaken belief caused by some other noise. The event had to have happened by June 1950 because that was when we left St. Athan for Northern Ireland. St. Athan was definitely the location.

I am prepared to be told it can't have happened, but I trust my memory. Something broke the sound barrier that day and I heard it.

[Lightning Mate]

May I be permitted to correct a myth?

The "sound barrier" does not, and never has, existed. If it did, it would not be possible to penetrate it.

I have flown at Mach 2 on numeous occasions, but never on Concorde.

[stepwilk]

Of course you're right, but I'm interested in your saying that "if it existed, it couldn't be broken." If it existed, maybe airplanes would carry sound-barrier knives on their noses, or have big sound-barrier battering rams...point being that if we're postulating an impossibility, how can we say what the possibilities would be?

[stepwilk]

"I am prepared to be told it can't have happened, but I trust my memory."

I'm guessing that you're right and that the official versions--"first public demonstration," "first official sonic boom," etc.--are wrong. Been known to happen. Some guy put the nose down a bit and did the ton, just as he had the week before, for the fun of it, out over the Channel or whatever. Nobody will ever -prove- it, but you were there.

[glosgirl]

The "sound barrier" does not, and never has, existed.

Maybe it is a misnomer, but everyone knows what is meant by it. I agree that the phrase is old hat now, but at the time I'm referring to, it was what we all said. And what we believed we heard.

[ColinB]

Have Faith

I am prepared to be told it can't have happened, but I trust my memory. Something broke the sound barrier that day and I heard it.

I am sure you did hear a sonic boom, they were caused by "high speed" aircraft in dives before and after Chuck Yeager officially broke the "barrier" in level flight in 1947.

[Planemike]

Have been thinking about this one. glosgirl seems pretty sure of her facts. Wonder whether the DeH 108 made it to St Athan. Both TG283 & VW120 were active around the right time and were capable of supersonic flight....just !!! In fact both were destroyed in 1950.

Planemike

[John Farley]

Planemike

I did take the 108 operations into account but pilots of that day say no to a boom in the St Athan area because fuel was very limited and the Hatfield 108s did not stray far from home. Winkle of course flew one from Farnborough but that was quite a while after glosgirl says her Dad left St Athan. After Taffy's first bang (which made the press and and was a big mystery so far as the public were concerned) the Farnborough tps were severely restricted to over water ops heading 180 from St Catherine's Head on the IoW - as indeed were similar Dunsfold based ops during 1951/2. Indeed that restriction was still in force a few years later in my time but for different reasons as the security side of exceeding Mach 1 was long gone as an issue following Farnborough 1952.

[BEagle]

Indeed that restriction was still in force a few years later in my time but for different reasons as the security side of exceeding Mach 1 was long gone as an issue following Farnborough 1952.

Indeed! From the Flying Programme of a typical small RAF flying station "At Home" 18 Sep 1954:

It is hoped that the Flying Display will include the following:-

Breaking the sound barrier by a Sabre of Fighter Command.

[stepwilk]

But Lightning Mate told us there IS no sound barrier.

[Vampiredave]

St Athan - Sound Barrier

I believe that the term 'Sound Barrier' was first coined by the media? It was certainly used to excess in the newspapers when John Derry became the first pilot in Britain to exceed Mach 1.0 in a DH 108 on 6 September 1948.

Beagle: I presume that you are referring to the Chivenor Air Day in September 1954 when a certain Capt Rosencranz USAF was alleged to have exceeded the speed of sound during a 'fast run' in one of the unit's Sabres?

[zetec2]

Sound Barrier & other queries

Having read these posts & the frustration it causes I have a similiar one, when a "Brat" at Halton I was at the 1959 Halton B of B air display, Jan Zurakowski (he of the falling leaf Meteor display) looped a DH Devon (remember silver overall), I have spoken to many people who were at the display (ex Brats etc) but none remembers it, I do, & would hope that some one out there has seen Jan Z do the same or similiar at Halton or another event, I wasn't dreaming it, it happened but just need another voice to confirm that it was done & was possible, help !, B Rgds, Paul H, Bicester.

[henry crun]

Vampiredave: When you say 'fast run, do you mean in level flight at low level past the crowd, or in a dive from high altitude ?

[Vampiredave]

Sound Barrier

Henry crun: Both! He dived from altitude over the Bristol Channel and went 'supersonic' before levelling out to complete a fast run in front of the crowd. For some time after the event, the 'good' people of nearby Fremington bombarded the Chivenor switchboard with complaints

[NutherA2]

I was at the 1959 Halton B of B air display

I was there, too, Zetec, and was No 2 in the Halton Chipmunk formation team (do you also remember seeing 2 loops in close Vic!). Your memory of the Devon's aerobatics is correct; it was an ETPS aircraft and there were 2 pilots, one was certainly Lew Cockerill (sp?); I remember the other as being a foreign ETPS student whom I thought was from the Italian Air Force, are you sure it was Zurakowski?

The reason for the second loop was that the aircraft scheduled for the "guess the height & speed competition" dropped out and the Devon was asked to fill in, having been told to fire a Very cartridge to signal the "guess point". They did this at the top of the loop and simultaneously feathered a prop, so that it looked as though it had been a single-engine manoeuvre.

The aircraft had originally been scheduled only for the ground static display but when it arrived they were asked to join the flying programme as there had been a few cancellations. They don't seem to organize displays that way any more.

[henry crun]

It was unlikely to have been Zurakowski, he emigrated to Canada in 1952, and retired from active flying in 1958.