Most precedential airplanes of all time?

[stepwilk]

I'll worry about the title later. Way later. In any case, a magazine article's title, blurb, photos and captions have absolutely nothing to do with the writer. They are created by the magazine's editors. I could perfectly well title the article "Here's the Article You Commissioned."

[Noyade]

The Magnificent Five

Since the panel above convened to deliberate on the the 12 "most significant" aircraft in 1961, Plane and Pilot added another five in 1981 making 17...(Reasons for each choice were discussed in the article).

The "Kitty Hawk flyer."
Bleriot X1 Monoplane.
Curtiss Hydroaeroplane.
Junkers Ju-13
Verille-Sperry Racer.
"Spirit of St Louis."
Taylor-Piper Cub.
Douglas DC-3.
Sikorsky XR-4
Bell X-1.
De Havilland Comet.
Boeing 707.
North American X-15.
Lockheed SR-71.
Concorde SST.
Gossamer Condor.
Space Shuttle.

[kluge]

Wittman Tailwind - "the Tailwind became the first aircraft covered under the FAA's Experimental category to be certified to carry a passenger"
Wittman Tailwind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Pietenpol Air Camper might be up there as well as this kicked off the home building scene in the US during the 1920s making access to aviation available to the layperson.
Pietenpol Air Camper and Sky Scout Technical Information

[Rory57]

The trouble is I suppose that aircraft progress has been driven by factors external to the aircraft themselves. eg It could be said that military aircraft since 1945 have been shaped as much by guided missiles and radar as by jet engines and aerodynamics.

Considering Novade's list, what could be added from the last 29 years? Perhaps the A380 / 787 after which no design can be competitive without depending upon carbon composites.

The Global Hawk or Reaper? The biggest step since a man first flew, flying without him. Fly-by-software is the most important innovation since the Wright Brothers combined lift, control and power: artificial stability, envelope limitation, engine management etc have already got the art to the point that, (working together with G.P.S.), unmanned aircraft can fly an entire mission autonomously.
Manned flight to unmanned flight in 100 years!

[seacue]

Manned flight to unmanned flight in 100 years!

And even hobbyists built an unmanned aircraft which flew across the Atlantic.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Model plane goes transatlantic

[barit1]

Nor was the DC-3 "the first," that arguably would have been the Boeing 247. But the Doug Racer was the one that worked.

In the same vein as the 367-80 preceding the 707/DC-8/etc., I'll agree with the Boeing 247. It had all the elements of success of the later birds, with the exception of economy of scale.

[seacue]

It had all the elements of success of the later birds, with the exception of economy of scale.

Does that also apply to the DC-2? Weren't more DC-2s built that Boeing 247s?

[barit1]

In round numbers:


B-247 certified 1933 75 built

DC-2 certified 1934 200 built

Lockheed 10 certified 1934 140 built

DC-3 certified 1936 800 ordered commercially pre-Pearl Harbor

[FlightlessParrot]

@Stepwilk This might seem harsh, but I don't think you have a clear concept, which is why you have had to make up a word. If the question were "Which aircraft have most influenced subsequent designers?" then, in principle, you could find out by asking/reading, though I doubt if a lot of the information is available. But you might get ideas by looking at dates, though then you end up with the Boeing 247, not the DC3. The other problem with this is that in a lot of cases it looks as though the available technology and knowledge drove designs, and who came first could be a bit of a lottery (monoplane fighters with heavier armament than 2 rifle calibre machine guns and an engine of c. 1,000 HP? Twin engined monoplane fast bombers with the same engines? The world was full of them, in the '30s.) If it were "Which aircraft was the first with feature X?" you could find out, though (as you say) you end up with a lot of truly obscure aeroplanes. You'd also have to decide which features you thought important (is tricycle undercarriage in light aircraft all that important, except to the people who fly them?) If it were "Which aircraft has had the most impact on the world?", you'd have to define impact, but you could see some likely examples, from M. Bleriot's monoplane to the B747; but neither of those, AFAIK, has had a great impact on subsequent aeroplane designs. The Spirit of St Louis had a huge impact on the popular mind in the US, but maybe it was more of an adventure than a major aeronautical advance? I realise you don't just want to write another set of "My Greatest Aeroplanes" articles, but I'm not sure you know yet how you want it to be different, because your idea of "precedential" seems to mean different things in different cases. Good luck.

[stepwilk]

That's okay, that's why I put my name on the articles I write. Then people can take issue with me. Or not. I'm perfectly happy with my various criteria and will have no problem supporting them. (I'm not sure, by the way, what you mean by my having to "make up a word." Precedential? Perfectly good word, and no, I didn't make it up.)

It's not simply a matter of dates or numbers, or of aero engineer B saying, "Oh, I'll do what aero engineer A did last week but will improve on it." There are many ways a technological advance can influence what comes after it, whether directly or indirectly.

Obviously, this is a subject upon which no two pilots in the world would agree, would both come up with exactly the same lists.

I'm delighted with many of the suggestions that this extremely knowledgeable audience has come up with, by the way.

[Mike7777777]

If precedential means "new start ", then there are four:

Wright Brother's offering

English Electric Lightning

SR71

Concorde

Everything else was merely a development of existing (SR71 and Concorde are awaiting their successors).

Perhaps a more important question is: which aeroplanes represent the greatest leap forward over what was?

[HarmoniousDragmaster]

Both the Boeing 247 and the DC 3 should feature, as should the Comet and 707 (NOT Dash 80!)

It was the 247 that set the pattern and prove it workd for others such as Douglas to follow, and thats why it should appear, but the DC 3's place on the list comes from after the war, not before it, as this was the plane, avaialble cheaply in large numbers, that facilitated the growth in post war commercial aviation far more than any of the bright new designs ever could have. So they both have their place.

I also disagree that the Me 262 set the pattern for future fighters. It was every bit as much a dead end as the rival Meteor was. It was the unflown P1101 and Ta 183 that were to inform the next generation of fighters with their wings swept back for higher performance, whereas the 262's were angled slightly back to fix a cg problem, hardly earth shattering.

[barit1]

I wouldn't relegate the DC-3 to postwar accomplishments. Its prewar success shows in the order book pre-war -- 800 civil orders. This figure was not surpassed until the B-727 - sometime in the 70s.

The postwar DC-3 is the quintessential story of peacetime re-use of a surplus military machine. C-47's & C-53's were re-sold for pennies on the dollar. Spare parts were plentiful and cheap. One could argue that its very omnipresence undercut and killed off many postwar, more efficient aircraft.

[HarmoniousDragmaster]

But, I would argue that the DC-3's most important contribution to the future of aviation was in exactly that post war availability (coupled with its proven capability and reliability). This was something no other aircraft on earth could provide, it was still the worlds most populous airliner as late as 1965. I'm not saying it was only a success after the war.

If its inclusion is based on it being a modern multi engined cantilever monoplane with retractable undercarriage and decent size capacity(for its time) then the Boeing 247 had already got there first. Its true the DC-3 eclipsed its success but can we be sure there would have been a DC-3 without the 247 before it? I'd say 'maybe' but that isn't really good enough, is it?

All IMHO of course chaps

[philbky]

Then of course there is the Focke Wulf Condor v C-54 v Constellation discussion regarding the aircraft that started/was most influential in the development of long range, commercial aviation

[Volume]

FW 200 Condor, first modern long range transport aircraft
First turbo prop long range Aircraft, Lockheed Electra ? Tu 95 ? IL-18 ? Bristol Brittania ?
Tu 114, fastest (and loudest) propeller driven passenger aircraft
Horten IV, first practical high performance all flying wing
fs-24 Phoenix, first composite aircraft (10 years before the Eagle...)
Vampyr, first aircraft with a single spar and torsion box high aspect ratio wing (in 1921)
SB-10, first Aircraft using carbon fibre in the primary structure (Wing)
Grob Stratos, first full composite Aircraft exceeding 50m Wingspan, several altitude records for piston driven aircraft
Piper L4 / J3 the Standard for GA aircraft for some decades. Did more pilots learn to fly on any other type ???

Which was the first aircraft that had real three axis control surfaces (ailerons, rudder, elevator) and did not "flex" the wings to roll or rely on a rigid fin to stabilize it ???

[HarmoniousDragmaster]

Which was the first aircraft that had real three axis control surfaces (ailerons, rudder, elevator) and did not "flex" the wings to roll or rely on a rigid fin to stabilize it ???

Could that have been the Antoinette VII?

[seacue]

I still have a fixation on the DC-2 over the B-247. While the 247 was certificated slightly earlier, didn't it have to be rapidly updated to the 247D model to incorporate variable-pitch props and perhaps deicing boots AFTER the DC-2 was introduced with these features? The 247 never got rid of the main spar through the passenger cabin.

The DC-2 spawned a major descendant, the 247 did not.

I stand to be corrected.

[barit1]

Seacue, correct on all counts.

In a way, though, the B-247 spawned the B-307 - I've never been in a 307 but the main spar (same as the B-17) must pass right thru a la the 247 and the Lockheed twins.

Which brings us to the 307 Stratoliner. First pressurized pax transport. Surely a milestone?

[POBJOY]

Two of the Best

TURBULENT Best small proper aeroplane ever made

COMPER SWFT Most efficient folding wing aeroplane ever made,
(10 SECONDS TO rig)
With probably the most efficient engine /prop /thrust ratio ever, in a proper aeroplane.



End of discussion
Pobjoy