Were All Forces Chaplains C of E?
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cleveland UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I lived in Plymouth 55 to 65, a very good friend of ours was Free Church RN Chaplain by the name of Gwilym Williams, in fact he officiated with the Minister of our Baptist Church at my sisters wedding.
I always remember he ( and his wife Peggy ) was so down to earth and un faized by anything ( must of been the Navy ) I used to play rugby on a playing field which was overlooked by their house, and yes I got proper refreshments at half time !
Happy New Year
I always remember he ( and his wife Peggy ) was so down to earth and un faized by anything ( must of been the Navy ) I used to play rugby on a playing field which was overlooked by their house, and yes I got proper refreshments at half time !
Happy New Year
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lixwm,Flintshire
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Reverend Hugh Lorimer Octavius Rees at RAF Yatesbury
The only Chaplain I was really aware of when I was in the RAF was at Yatesbury in 1956.
The main justification of Yatesbury was that it trained large numbers of radio tradesman, the majority of who were National Servicemen who were by definition the brightest and the best qualified. Many had either just left or were about to attend advanced learning institutions. Their long, poorly paid, haul through academia and apprenticeship was now to be followed by giving up another two years of their lives for poorly paid service for their country.
Their view was they had been snatched from their homes under duress, sent to a place called Cardington and been given a lot of smelly, ill-fitting clothes. Then they were shanghaied for eight weeks to a place where ignorant people shouted at them and made them carry guns round a tarmac patch. To compound these indignities they were sent to a remote place in Wiltshire which consisted of acres of temporary wooden huts sited on the dip slope of a scarp. The induction day was always Wednesdays when it was generally raining.
On the Wednesday they had to carry their blue cards around all of the check in places, this covered miles and the rain was normally fine enough to penetrate any clothing except the Desert Rats’ friend, the ground sheet.
This started the long weeks spent on various courses with little pay in an isolated area and with little chance of getting home at weekends (although some entrepreneurs sold seats in their cars, one aptly named Jock Stein ran a car to Glasgow).
Yatesbury was so large that it had six messes, various NAAFIs and one Malcolm Club. One of the sanctuaries for the broke and intellectually starved was the Church in Y Lines run by the above-mentioned gentlemen and his group of mature, twin-setted, lady volunteers. They dispensed free hot drinks and biscuits and showed movies by the American Dr Bob starring in a series about the wonders of nature. (This was before Hans and Lotte). They had a library, a book exchange and a Film Appreciation Society. I recall talks on John dos Passos, Studs Lonigan and Marcel Proust. It was also the first place I saw Nosferatu and the Jannings version of Blue Angel. All of this without pressure to become a full-time Christian.
I have read the obituary of Hugh Rees and note he was something of a clerical high flyer but he was anything but that with us. I recall a nice man dealing with literally thousands of bright young men, many with a chip on their shoulder, in a warm and friendly fashion. I am sure he was typical of his profession.
If Hugh had a vice it may have been pride, one of his grateful congregation had given him a bell which was big enough to join the ring at Salisbury Cathedral. He would joyfully have it tolled in the early hours of Sunday mornings, wakening poorly paid airmen in their freezing wooden huts after a night on the finest Wiltshire scrumpy. This was not a popular practice and it was noted that there were gaps of weeks when this did not happen. It transpired that graduating courses would remove the bell rope and either burn or bury it until someone else donated a new one.
As Yatesbury is now farmland I often gain comfort from the thought that future archaeologists searching in the Avebury/Silbury Hill area may discover a scattered cache of buried bell ropes and postulate a cult of bell worshippers.
The main justification of Yatesbury was that it trained large numbers of radio tradesman, the majority of who were National Servicemen who were by definition the brightest and the best qualified. Many had either just left or were about to attend advanced learning institutions. Their long, poorly paid, haul through academia and apprenticeship was now to be followed by giving up another two years of their lives for poorly paid service for their country.
Their view was they had been snatched from their homes under duress, sent to a place called Cardington and been given a lot of smelly, ill-fitting clothes. Then they were shanghaied for eight weeks to a place where ignorant people shouted at them and made them carry guns round a tarmac patch. To compound these indignities they were sent to a remote place in Wiltshire which consisted of acres of temporary wooden huts sited on the dip slope of a scarp. The induction day was always Wednesdays when it was generally raining.
On the Wednesday they had to carry their blue cards around all of the check in places, this covered miles and the rain was normally fine enough to penetrate any clothing except the Desert Rats’ friend, the ground sheet.
This started the long weeks spent on various courses with little pay in an isolated area and with little chance of getting home at weekends (although some entrepreneurs sold seats in their cars, one aptly named Jock Stein ran a car to Glasgow).
Yatesbury was so large that it had six messes, various NAAFIs and one Malcolm Club. One of the sanctuaries for the broke and intellectually starved was the Church in Y Lines run by the above-mentioned gentlemen and his group of mature, twin-setted, lady volunteers. They dispensed free hot drinks and biscuits and showed movies by the American Dr Bob starring in a series about the wonders of nature. (This was before Hans and Lotte). They had a library, a book exchange and a Film Appreciation Society. I recall talks on John dos Passos, Studs Lonigan and Marcel Proust. It was also the first place I saw Nosferatu and the Jannings version of Blue Angel. All of this without pressure to become a full-time Christian.
I have read the obituary of Hugh Rees and note he was something of a clerical high flyer but he was anything but that with us. I recall a nice man dealing with literally thousands of bright young men, many with a chip on their shoulder, in a warm and friendly fashion. I am sure he was typical of his profession.
If Hugh had a vice it may have been pride, one of his grateful congregation had given him a bell which was big enough to join the ring at Salisbury Cathedral. He would joyfully have it tolled in the early hours of Sunday mornings, wakening poorly paid airmen in their freezing wooden huts after a night on the finest Wiltshire scrumpy. This was not a popular practice and it was noted that there were gaps of weeks when this did not happen. It transpired that graduating courses would remove the bell rope and either burn or bury it until someone else donated a new one.
As Yatesbury is now farmland I often gain comfort from the thought that future archaeologists searching in the Avebury/Silbury Hill area may discover a scattered cache of buried bell ropes and postulate a cult of bell worshippers.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North of Hadrian's Wall
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ColinB, you are quite incorrect in believing that the official religion of the realm is C of E. It is the established church in England only and as the Armed Services are British, not English, then all religions are represented in the chaplaincy. I know from experience that C of E, C of S, Baptist and RC all have full-time chaplains. I've never come across a Rabbi though and in my time there was no Moslem representation either, although that may have changed by now.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lixwm,Flintshire
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I Don't Know But
I have no real knowledge of religious affairs and whilst respecting another persons beliefs I am puzzled. I always believed that Henry VIII broke away from the Papacy. I also believed that it was a pre-requisite to joining the British forces that one attested loyalty to the Queen, who is the head of State and hence the Church of England.
Is it possible that other religions are tolerated?
Is it possible that other religions are tolerated?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North of Hadrian's Wall
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
for Colin B - a short history lesson
Henry VIII was King of England long before the Union of the Crowns and the subsequent Act of Union (of the Scottish and English Parliaments) which established the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You share the same misconception as many other Englishmen that the UK equals England. It does not and Elizabeth Windsor is Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. SHE IS NOT QUEEN OF ENGLAND quite simply because there is no Kingdom of England and therefore no such role. Equally there is no established religion in the United Kingdom, in which respect England and Scotland maintain their quite separate religious establishments.
You are however right in that everyone joining the UK Armed Forces takes an oath of allegiance to the monarch as commander in chief (as I did when I was commissioned into the RAF many years ago) but that is quite different to an oath of allegiance to any religion.
You are however right in that everyone joining the UK Armed Forces takes an oath of allegiance to the monarch as commander in chief (as I did when I was commissioned into the RAF many years ago) but that is quite different to an oath of allegiance to any religion.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Middlesex
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Current Chaplaincy arrangements are 282 chaplains of different denominations serving 181,000 members of the armed forces. There is approximately 1 Christian chaplain for every 650 Christian (nominal or participative). As can be seen below moves are underway to ensure chaplains are available from non-Christian faiths:
Army : Regular Chaplain - British Army Website
RAF : RAF Chaplains - Royal Air Force Chaplains Branch
Navy : http://http://www.rncom.mod.uk/Chapl...ncy_Index.aspx
RC Chaplaincy (been around since 1858) : Bishopric of the Forces / The Church in England and Wales / Catholic Church / Root - Catholic Church of England and Wales
Methodist Chaplaincy : The Methodist Church of Great Britain | Chaplaincy to the Armed Forces
There are also Baptist Chaplains.
Muslim RN Chaplain : News : Religion in the Navy : RN Life : Training and People : Royal Navy
Jewish Chaplain : Ministry of Defence | Defence News | People In Defence | First Jewish Civilian Chaplain to the Military
Army : Regular Chaplain - British Army Website
RAF : RAF Chaplains - Royal Air Force Chaplains Branch
Navy : http://http://www.rncom.mod.uk/Chapl...ncy_Index.aspx
RC Chaplaincy (been around since 1858) : Bishopric of the Forces / The Church in England and Wales / Catholic Church / Root - Catholic Church of England and Wales
Methodist Chaplaincy : The Methodist Church of Great Britain | Chaplaincy to the Armed Forces
There are also Baptist Chaplains.
Muslim RN Chaplain : News : Religion in the Navy : RN Life : Training and People : Royal Navy
Jewish Chaplain : Ministry of Defence | Defence News | People In Defence | First Jewish Civilian Chaplain to the Military
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lixwm,Flintshire
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Friendly Fire
You share the same misconception as many other Englishmen that the UK equals England
I always thought that irrespective of race, creed or rank we all took the Queen's shilling and did the Queen's business.
There was a fairly unusual chaplain who was both an Anglian chaplain and later after conversion a Roman Catholic one.
He was Fr. Brian Measures a former priest (Canon) in the Anglican Church, who converted to Catholicism in 1987. As an Anglian priest he was for nearly 10 years a Territorial Army chaplain who served in the RAChD (TA) from 1971 to 1980, first as chaplain to the 6th Bn The Royal Anglian Regiment and from 1975 to 1980 as chaplain to 219 (Wessex) General Hospital RAMC, Keynsham.
He was also attached for varying periods to HQ 2 Armoured Division, BAOR at 7 RHA Osnabruck and British Military Hospital Hannover; RA Tidworth & Larkhill and at Bulford and Netheravon.
In 1996 he was ordained to the Roman Catholic priesthood and appointed assistant to Bishop Walmsley (Catholic Bishop to the Forces).
Fr Brian who did his national service in the RAF, qualified as a glider pilot in the ATC at the age of seventeen. He later gained his pilot’s licence with night rating and flew his own four-seater Beechcraft Musketeer for recreation in Britain and trips to the Continent. He was Anglican chaplain to the local Royal Air Force Association for a number of years, a post which he offered to resign when he became a Catholic priest. The members of the Association asked him to continue as their chaplain.
At his ordination to the Roman Catholic priesthood he commented that he didn’t think too many priests in the UK had a pilot’s licence and owned their own plane!
I knew him as a personal friend.
Fr. Brian Measures died on the 8th May 2007.
He was Fr. Brian Measures a former priest (Canon) in the Anglican Church, who converted to Catholicism in 1987. As an Anglian priest he was for nearly 10 years a Territorial Army chaplain who served in the RAChD (TA) from 1971 to 1980, first as chaplain to the 6th Bn The Royal Anglian Regiment and from 1975 to 1980 as chaplain to 219 (Wessex) General Hospital RAMC, Keynsham.
He was also attached for varying periods to HQ 2 Armoured Division, BAOR at 7 RHA Osnabruck and British Military Hospital Hannover; RA Tidworth & Larkhill and at Bulford and Netheravon.
In 1996 he was ordained to the Roman Catholic priesthood and appointed assistant to Bishop Walmsley (Catholic Bishop to the Forces).
Fr Brian who did his national service in the RAF, qualified as a glider pilot in the ATC at the age of seventeen. He later gained his pilot’s licence with night rating and flew his own four-seater Beechcraft Musketeer for recreation in Britain and trips to the Continent. He was Anglican chaplain to the local Royal Air Force Association for a number of years, a post which he offered to resign when he became a Catholic priest. The members of the Association asked him to continue as their chaplain.
At his ordination to the Roman Catholic priesthood he commented that he didn’t think too many priests in the UK had a pilot’s licence and owned their own plane!
I knew him as a personal friend.
Fr. Brian Measures died on the 8th May 2007.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lixwm,Flintshire
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Fall out the Roman Catholics, Jews, and Non Christians".
I am still confused over a couple of things.
On parades when the SWO shouted out "Fall out the Roman Catholics, Jews, and Non Christians". who was left remaining. I always thought they were C of E.
Was the prayer a multi-denomination blessing? Obviously not.
Are various religions still in 2010 invited to leave the parade until the service is over?
On parades when the SWO shouted out "Fall out the Roman Catholics, Jews, and Non Christians". who was left remaining. I always thought they were C of E.
Was the prayer a multi-denomination blessing? Obviously not.
Are various religions still in 2010 invited to leave the parade until the service is over?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read of an incident -WWII - when the station chaplain saw a bunch of chaps in the gymn, larkng about with a ' medicine ball ' ; said chaplain decided to join in for jollity, and mistook the ball for a football or similar and gave it a really hearty kick...
The cracking of his ankle bones was very audible, as moreso were the expletives, which left even the groundcrew astonished.
The cracking of his ankle bones was very audible, as moreso were the expletives, which left even the groundcrew astonished.
Fall out Roman Catholics and Jews
During Church Parades at Kirton Lindsey in the winter of 1955 the order used to be given: "FALL OUT ROMAN CATHOLICS AND JEWS" before the religious proceedings began. Us poor C of E's were forced to endure another freezing twenty minutes before we too could escape to the warmth of the barrack blocks.
No doubt this would be considered racist in these enlightened times!
No doubt this would be considered racist in these enlightened times!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Middlesex
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
he commented that he didn’t think too many priests in the UK had a pilot’s licence and owned their own plane!
I understand from a RN chaplain that where there is only one based/visiting chaplain then a multi-denominational service takes place first, afterwhich the chaplain may celebrate a service according to his/her denomination.
.... you are quite incorrect in believing that the official religion of the realm is C of E. It is the established church in England only and as the Armed Services are British, not English, then all religions are represented in the chaplaincy
Very well put Redbarron, and in fact HM The Queen, the Head of our Armed Forces, has an interesting role with regard to both the Church of England and the Church of Scotland as defined at Queen and the Church
In practical terms, she normally worships with the C of E in England and Wales, and with the C of S in Scotland and, correspondingly, the most senior Service Chaplains of each church are normally appointed Queen's Honorary Chaplains and wear special clerical dress and badges.
Interestingly enough, Royal Navy Chaplains (and Chaplains of what used to be called the "Old Commonwealth" navies) neither hold Service ranks nor wear badges of rank, since they are deemed to have assumed the rank of the person with whom they are conversing, whether they are an AB or an Admiral. And, oh yes, Chaplains RN serving with an RM Commando must gain their "Green Beret"!
Jack
PS As the midnight hour approaches, I am a little too tired to embark on any "dits" about RN Chaplains .....
Very well put Redbarron, and in fact HM The Queen, the Head of our Armed Forces, has an interesting role with regard to both the Church of England and the Church of Scotland as defined at Queen and the Church
In practical terms, she normally worships with the C of E in England and Wales, and with the C of S in Scotland and, correspondingly, the most senior Service Chaplains of each church are normally appointed Queen's Honorary Chaplains and wear special clerical dress and badges.
Interestingly enough, Royal Navy Chaplains (and Chaplains of what used to be called the "Old Commonwealth" navies) neither hold Service ranks nor wear badges of rank, since they are deemed to have assumed the rank of the person with whom they are conversing, whether they are an AB or an Admiral. And, oh yes, Chaplains RN serving with an RM Commando must gain their "Green Beret"!
Jack
PS As the midnight hour approaches, I am a little too tired to embark on any "dits" about RN Chaplains .....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lixwm,Flintshire
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How Many Are There Now?
I think the recollections of most of us reflect the days of large numbers of service personnel and large units. I understand at one time there was over 10,000 people at Yatesbury and large numbers at St Athan.
Are there still forces religious advisers on larger units? I cannot see them being on smaller units. On stations with no padre/chaplain do they use the services of locals? It would solve denomination problem
Are there still forces religious advisers on larger units? I cannot see them being on smaller units. On stations with no padre/chaplain do they use the services of locals? It would solve denomination problem
reflect the days of large numbers of service personnel and large units
