The Horten 229 Flying Wing
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The Horten 229 Flying Wing
Was it stealthy?
From AOPA
AOPA Online: Hitler’s stealth fighter show to air
National Geographic Channel and Northrop Grumman Corp. built a Horten 229 flying wing replica to determine if it had stealth capabilities three decades before the United States.
With the construction and testing completed, the model has gone to the San Diego Air and Space Museum for display. The model was placed on a 50-foot pedestal at a formerly secret location in the Mojave Desert so that it could be hit with radar returns from every angle. Did the wooden aircraft prove to be stealthy? You’ll have to watch.
From AOPA
AOPA Online: Hitler’s stealth fighter show to air
National Geographic Channel and Northrop Grumman Corp. built a Horten 229 flying wing replica to determine if it had stealth capabilities three decades before the United States.
With the construction and testing completed, the model has gone to the San Diego Air and Space Museum for display. The model was placed on a 50-foot pedestal at a formerly secret location in the Mojave Desert so that it could be hit with radar returns from every angle. Did the wooden aircraft prove to be stealthy? You’ll have to watch.
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Yes the shape, and its plywood covering would make it stealthy, but this was not a deliberate design objective, therefore its stealth would be undone by the open air intakes from the front, something modern stealth designers take great pains to avoid.
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I really liked this quote:
"The U.S. government has hidden a German-built prototype of the flying wing in a warehouse since World War II."
In the video clip on the website attached to the first post they talk about "the government hiding the aircraft in a secret government warehouse near Washington, DC". Uuuhhhh.... It's been in storage, not so secretely, at the Smithsonians "Silver Hill" restoration facility.
As for the being designed with stealth in mind - baloney! It is not much more than a scaled up, jet powered, version of the earlier Horten designs. Any design stealth (radar evading) properties were no more than happenstance and, of course, the radar of the day wasn't up to today's standards.
C2j
"The U.S. government has hidden a German-built prototype of the flying wing in a warehouse since World War II."
In the video clip on the website attached to the first post they talk about "the government hiding the aircraft in a secret government warehouse near Washington, DC". Uuuhhhh.... It's been in storage, not so secretely, at the Smithsonians "Silver Hill" restoration facility.
As for the being designed with stealth in mind - baloney! It is not much more than a scaled up, jet powered, version of the earlier Horten designs. Any design stealth (radar evading) properties were no more than happenstance and, of course, the radar of the day wasn't up to today's standards.
C2j
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The Horten gliders are at the Smithsonian at Dulles:
They also have the US version, the Northrop Flying Wing, just across the aisle.
They also have the US version, the Northrop Flying Wing, just across the aisle.
Last edited by ICT_SLB; 27th Jun 2009 at 02:44.
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Before anyone carries on with opinion and words like "baloney", may i politely suggest that you go and read David Myrha's excellent book, The Horten brothers and their all wing aircraft- published by Schiffer.
Given that the Horten brothers were part of the book and okayed it for Myrha, you can take its contents as definitive.
Having had a long term research association with their work, I think I can say that there use of early plastic, plastic -type coverings, allied to wooden and steel tube construction techniques, was mostly due to the needs of weight, range and the unique function of teh flying wing.
In case you do not know, (and it not in the book, but it is published) a Horten airframe that was "resecued" by the USA in May 1945 as part of Operation Paperclip, was taken to the USA and later tested for its glide ratio. Sadly it was modified by those that thought they knew better, and the unique bell shapped wing lift distribution pattern was ruined by the mods to the canopy and centre wing area. Having done that, the Horten was then slated for its poor performance...
gents, if youa re going to slag the Hortens off, do try adn do your research first or you will end up lloking very silly.
And it is no coincidence that the latest UAVs and such blended wing desings, resemble 1930s Horten designs. Check out the 60 degree swept Horten glider that the F111A Stealth fighter resembles.
Try the "nurflugel" web site too...for part of the story on-line
Given that the Horten brothers were part of the book and okayed it for Myrha, you can take its contents as definitive.
Having had a long term research association with their work, I think I can say that there use of early plastic, plastic -type coverings, allied to wooden and steel tube construction techniques, was mostly due to the needs of weight, range and the unique function of teh flying wing.
In case you do not know, (and it not in the book, but it is published) a Horten airframe that was "resecued" by the USA in May 1945 as part of Operation Paperclip, was taken to the USA and later tested for its glide ratio. Sadly it was modified by those that thought they knew better, and the unique bell shapped wing lift distribution pattern was ruined by the mods to the canopy and centre wing area. Having done that, the Horten was then slated for its poor performance...
gents, if youa re going to slag the Hortens off, do try adn do your research first or you will end up lloking very silly.
And it is no coincidence that the latest UAVs and such blended wing desings, resemble 1930s Horten designs. Check out the 60 degree swept Horten glider that the F111A Stealth fighter resembles.
Try the "nurflugel" web site too...for part of the story on-line
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Oops
That is an eff on-eleven old boy.
I was thinking of the stealth fighter - as i am sure some subtle response humour knows. Perchance I gave it the wrong number- F117 would be nearer would it not?
Sorry
I was thinking of the stealth fighter - as i am sure some subtle response humour knows. Perchance I gave it the wrong number- F117 would be nearer would it not?
Sorry
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@Slats1
I assume you meant the Northrop B2.
Although Northrop's flying wing was certainly based on German research,
it may be argued that the Jack Northrop took his concept and developed it after reviewing German research.
Flying wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I assume you meant the Northrop B2.
Although Northrop's flying wing was certainly based on German research,
it may be argued that the Jack Northrop took his concept and developed it after reviewing German research.
Flying wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by Michael Birbeck; 28th Jun 2009 at 13:30.
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Ah - no I did not mean the B2 - which is both Horten and Northrop- esque.
If you can find a shot of the Horten 60 degreee sweep job you will see what I meant.
Try the Nurflugel web site.
If you can find a shot of the Horten 60 degreee sweep job you will see what I meant.
Try the Nurflugel web site.
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F117a -"Stealth Concept"
From Wikipedia
The F117a is not a flying wing per se though - it has a tail.
In 1964, Pyotr Ya. Ufimtsev, a Russian mathematician, published a seminal paper, "Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction", in the Journal of the Moscow Institute for Radio Engineering, in which he showed that the strength of a radar return is related to the edge configuration of an object, not its size.[8] Ufimtsev was extending theoretical work published by the German physicist Arnold Sommerfeld.[9][10][11] Ufimtsev demonstrated that he could calculate the radar cross-section across a wing's surface and along its edge. The obvious conclusion was that even a large airplane could be made stealthy by exploiting this principle. However, the airplane's design would make it aerodynamically unstable, and the state of computer science in the early 1960s could not provide the kinds of flight computers which allow aircraft such as the F-117, and B-2 Spirit to stay airborne. However, by the 1970s, when a Lockheed analyst reviewing foreign literature found Ufimtsev's paper, computers and software had advanced significantly, and the stage was set for the development of a stealthy airplane.[
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The B-2 is essentially a flying wing design whereas the F-117A is a lifting body/high-swept delta wing design.
The B2 is closer to the Horten design philosophy.
NASA Dreyden Centre - Lift Body
NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Lifting Bodies
Lifting body - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
YouTube - NASA X-craft -The Lifting Bodies
YouTube - Lifting Bodies
Horten Stealth
Possibly true or at the very least a beneficial artefact of the flying wing design concept!
"Myhra, David. Northrop Tests Hitler's 'Stealth' Fighter." Aviation History, Volume 19, Issue 6, July 2009.
Myhra site pre radar test.
David Myhra - Present & Future Publications
The B2 is closer to the Horten design philosophy.
NASA Dreyden Centre - Lift Body
NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Lifting Bodies
Lifting body - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
YouTube - NASA X-craft -The Lifting Bodies
YouTube - Lifting Bodies
Horten Stealth
Possibly true or at the very least a beneficial artefact of the flying wing design concept!
"Myhra, David. Northrop Tests Hitler's 'Stealth' Fighter." Aviation History, Volume 19, Issue 6, July 2009.
Stealth technology
Reiman Horton said he mixed charcoal dust in with the wood glue to absorb electromagnetic waves (radar), which could have shielded the aircraft from detection by British early warning ground-based radar known as Chain Home. This application was tested by Northrop-Grumman in early 2009 and found to have been successful, making the Ho-229 the first aircraft to successfully incorporate "stealth technology" in its design.
Reiman Horton said he mixed charcoal dust in with the wood glue to absorb electromagnetic waves (radar), which could have shielded the aircraft from detection by British early warning ground-based radar known as Chain Home. This application was tested by Northrop-Grumman in early 2009 and found to have been successful, making the Ho-229 the first aircraft to successfully incorporate "stealth technology" in its design.
David Myhra - Present & Future Publications
Last edited by Cacophonix; 28th Jun 2009 at 22:09.
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the program was well done except for the secret location of the -229 at "silver hill'. And the replica was a beautiful machine. I had never read the requirement for '3 times 1000' for the Luftwaffe.. interesting.
The program said flight tests showed the -229 superior to the -262 in performance (t/o distance, speed, altitude) and that it was more agile. The program asserted in simulated dogfights, the -229 again was superior to the -262 but various sites say the -229 prototype only made a few flights before crashing and the cause of the crash is debated.
Today, enroute to KIND, we passed by Freeman Field which is southwest of Dayton's Wright Patt. After WWI, Freeman field was used for flight test of many Axis aircraft including the -262 but when I visited Freeman a few years ago, I saw nothing to suggest the -229 ever made it there.
Anyway, very interesting machine and the program said that the replica showed a 20% reduction in the radar cross section compared to other aircraft. With its speed, reduced RCS, it would have been very difficult to intercept if not impossible.
Good show and it would be very interesting to see the replica up close. A very clean design.
more here
Horten Wings
The program said flight tests showed the -229 superior to the -262 in performance (t/o distance, speed, altitude) and that it was more agile. The program asserted in simulated dogfights, the -229 again was superior to the -262 but various sites say the -229 prototype only made a few flights before crashing and the cause of the crash is debated.
Today, enroute to KIND, we passed by Freeman Field which is southwest of Dayton's Wright Patt. After WWI, Freeman field was used for flight test of many Axis aircraft including the -262 but when I visited Freeman a few years ago, I saw nothing to suggest the -229 ever made it there.
Anyway, very interesting machine and the program said that the replica showed a 20% reduction in the radar cross section compared to other aircraft. With its speed, reduced RCS, it would have been very difficult to intercept if not impossible.
Good show and it would be very interesting to see the replica up close. A very clean design.
more here
Horten Wings
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Anyway, very interesting machine and the program said that the replica showed a 20% reduction in the radar cross section compared to other aircraft. With its speed, reduced RCS, it would have been very difficult to intercept if not impossible.
Advance warning time for the Chain Home low only 2.5 minutes.
