Mosquito "Resin Lamps"
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I have found the following tantalising reference in the National Archive catalogue:
AVIA 15/1436 "Aircraft; General- ID and Recognition (code 5/5); Air to air recognition lights, Resin system"
Anyone off to Kew soon?
I have applied fior an estimate to copy this document. I will off course let you know how I get on.
AVIA 15/1436 "Aircraft; General- ID and Recognition (code 5/5); Air to air recognition lights, Resin system"
Anyone off to Kew soon?
I have applied fior an estimate to copy this document. I will off course let you know how I get on.
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Slightly off thread. However in about 1963/4 at 229 OCU Chivenor we did some night formation training in Hunters. Bear in mind that the intention for this unnatural aviation was for day fighters to take off before dawn or land after dusk. The Hunter had neither resin lights, as some Meteors had, or the bright/dim facility for the nav lights. Or landing/taxy lights! In formation the lead aircraft's nav lights would dazzle no 2. ( Never flew more than a pair ) We found that the best way to do it was for the lead to turn off his nav lights and the no 2's would then illuminate the lead's aircraft. It worked OK but useless if you went through cloud.
I only used this technique once in anger when being escorted by a Canberra whilst ferrying a Hunter to Singapore. Having asked the Akrotiri station nav what time it would be dark in Teheran he obviously got it wrong as we flew east and the last hour of the flight was in darkenss.
I only used this technique once in anger when being escorted by a Canberra whilst ferrying a Hunter to Singapore. Having asked the Akrotiri station nav what time it would be dark in Teheran he obviously got it wrong as we flew east and the last hour of the flight was in darkenss.
18 Wheeler- thanks for your response- there were several IR detection and sighting systems in use by all sides during WW2, including the German "Kiel-Gerat" and "Spanner" systems, development of which had preceded the war by some margin.
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Resin lamps
Delta Yankee- Unfortunately I could not afford the £400 odd that it would cost to get a digital copy of the entire file, and as I haven't seen the file I cannot select any specific pages to be copied either!
I am currently planning a visit to kew, but as I don't have a readers card I may have to go over two days, day one to register for a readers card and then to access the file on day two.
This subject has cropped up again recently and hence my return to this thread!
If any PPruners can help with the contents of file AVIA15/1436 I would be extremely grateful.
cheers,
Zotbox
I am currently planning a visit to kew, but as I don't have a readers card I may have to go over two days, day one to register for a readers card and then to access the file on day two.
This subject has cropped up again recently and hence my return to this thread!
If any PPruners can help with the contents of file AVIA15/1436 I would be extremely grateful.
cheers,
Zotbox
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Hi, first timer here so apologies for coming to the party late. I can confirm that Resin Lights, whatever they were for, were fitted to Lancasters. I have an 83 Squadron 'Pilot's Questionnaire' from the period of their conversion in 1942. This includes questions on the position of resin light switches and the rules for their use. They are also an item on the cockpit check list issued as part of the 7 Group Lanc I and III drills dated Jan 45.
Whatever their function, they were not part of an I.R. detection system. The only I.R. system on the Lancaster formed a part of the 'Village Inn' Automatic Gun Laying system, which was never made fully operational during the war. You can see the evidence of its introduction though, as the Bomb Aimer's nose blister aquired two distinctive circular fittings from summer 1944 - these were I.R. transmitters to identify the aircraft as friendly to bombers fitted with a 'Village Inn' rear turret.
Hope this helps,
Richard
Whatever their function, they were not part of an I.R. detection system. The only I.R. system on the Lancaster formed a part of the 'Village Inn' Automatic Gun Laying system, which was never made fully operational during the war. You can see the evidence of its introduction though, as the Bomb Aimer's nose blister aquired two distinctive circular fittings from summer 1944 - these were I.R. transmitters to identify the aircraft as friendly to bombers fitted with a 'Village Inn' rear turret.
Hope this helps,
Richard
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I've come late to this thread, too.
I concur with PAFG in that I understand resin lamps to have been in widespread use during WW2, for the purpose of formation keeping and recognition in the air.
I cannot recall ever seeing a reference to the use of I.R. technology for this purpose (other than the Village Green equipment already referred to) but maybe some experiments were carried out.
I agree with Chugalug 2's suggestion that use of the word 'resin' stems from the coloured discs of such material in the caps that feature in the ebay ad. that Aerials refers us to.
Here is an extract from Volume 3 of a set of books I compiled a few years ago, which illustrate and describe a lot of British wartime aircraft equipment. The highlights are not mine, it's Microsoft trying to point out the errors in my grammar and spelling.
Much of the information was taken from original Air Publications and other technical documents.
I concur with PAFG in that I understand resin lamps to have been in widespread use during WW2, for the purpose of formation keeping and recognition in the air.
I cannot recall ever seeing a reference to the use of I.R. technology for this purpose (other than the Village Green equipment already referred to) but maybe some experiments were carried out.
I agree with Chugalug 2's suggestion that use of the word 'resin' stems from the coloured discs of such material in the caps that feature in the ebay ad. that Aerials refers us to.
Here is an extract from Volume 3 of a set of books I compiled a few years ago, which illustrate and describe a lot of British wartime aircraft equipment. The highlights are not mine, it's Microsoft trying to point out the errors in my grammar and spelling.
Much of the information was taken from original Air Publications and other technical documents.
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thank goodness 682al has come up with the "final solution "I have been wracking my brains as to what filament we fitted to the a/c I worked on back in the distant and dim past I thought they were about 7watts but I stand corrected all I remember was they were very low and to see them in daylight you had to cup both hands round them and peer into the gloom how the heck aircrew saw them I'll never know.
Last edited by avionic type; 18th Apr 2010 at 14:33. Reason: typing error
18 Wheeler- thanks for your response- there were several IR detection and sighting systems in use by all sides during WW2, including the German "Kiel-Gerat" and "Spanner" systems, development of which had preceded the war by some margin.
Indeed RV jones himself carried out the first airborne interception of an aircraft using an IR detector of his own design from Farnborough in 1937.
Indeed RV jones himself carried out the first airborne interception of an aircraft using an IR detector of his own design from Farnborough in 1937.
Bump time - I'm just reading the excellent book, "Most Secret War", by RV Jones, and one thing in it so far that really surprises me is that he talks about how, in 1936, he was mucking around with infra-red detection gear. Towards the end of '36 or '37 they got it so good it could pick up an aircraft in flight by the friction generated by the air flowing over the leading edge of the wings. I was very impressed by that, as only a couple of years before the best they could do was detect a hot engine out in the open breeze, but not an engine with an enclosed cowling. Then shortly after they could detect the exhaust gasses, and then the other warmer parts of the structure. I don't know how the information was presented, but they really could do it nearly 80 years ago.
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Research, in Kew, continues, and many files remain, but discoveries, so far, are that there were two infra-red recognition systems in use during mid/late WWII, types "Z" & "F." "Z" was used on bombers, and was not "Village Inn," though it was allied to it. "F" was used on fighters, initially just twin-engined, but later extended to some single-engined.
Findings, so far, are that "Z" included forward "firing" IR lamps, which could be picked up by the tailgunner of a preceding bomber, if he had an IR scope attached to his guns.
The exact set-up of "F" still remains to be found, but, on at least two papers, in a file on both systems, there is mention of the length of time that resin lamps should be used, which tends to confirm that, by mid-to-late war, they were part of the IR set-up. The lamps were supposed to flash a Morse letter ("E" was found to be unsuitable,) which could be changed at certain intervals.
A 1942 recognition leaflet contains a section on resin lamps, with the warning that they are not to carried more than a few miles off the coast of the U.K., which also indicates that, by then, their use was now secret. It also says that some fighters are carrying them as an extra tail lamp on the trailing edge of the rudder.
"Village Inn" was a radar-equipped rear turret, which could detect enemy, and friendly, aircraft, with the gunner using the scope to interrogate them for the forward-exposing IR lamps, from a reasonable range. As well as the IR scope, V.I. included a gyro gunsight (type IIC, while fighters carried IID,) which enabled the gunner to engage an enemy at deflection angles, without the need for night vision-destroying tracer.
A friend of mine, about 20 years ago, put a request into Aeroplane Monthly, asking about resin lamps, and, at first, only got letters from former pilots, complaining about how useless they were as formation lights, because they were so dim; he finally heard from a man, still working in the industry, who told him all about the lamps and the IR scopes, which were fitted to Mosquito nightfighters but removed, and locked in a cupboard after each sortie. He also said that bomber pilots were never told of their true purpose, so that, if captured, they didn't inadvertently give away the information.
Findings, so far, are that "Z" included forward "firing" IR lamps, which could be picked up by the tailgunner of a preceding bomber, if he had an IR scope attached to his guns.
The exact set-up of "F" still remains to be found, but, on at least two papers, in a file on both systems, there is mention of the length of time that resin lamps should be used, which tends to confirm that, by mid-to-late war, they were part of the IR set-up. The lamps were supposed to flash a Morse letter ("E" was found to be unsuitable,) which could be changed at certain intervals.
A 1942 recognition leaflet contains a section on resin lamps, with the warning that they are not to carried more than a few miles off the coast of the U.K., which also indicates that, by then, their use was now secret. It also says that some fighters are carrying them as an extra tail lamp on the trailing edge of the rudder.
"Village Inn" was a radar-equipped rear turret, which could detect enemy, and friendly, aircraft, with the gunner using the scope to interrogate them for the forward-exposing IR lamps, from a reasonable range. As well as the IR scope, V.I. included a gyro gunsight (type IIC, while fighters carried IID,) which enabled the gunner to engage an enemy at deflection angles, without the need for night vision-destroying tracer.
A friend of mine, about 20 years ago, put a request into Aeroplane Monthly, asking about resin lamps, and, at first, only got letters from former pilots, complaining about how useless they were as formation lights, because they were so dim; he finally heard from a man, still working in the industry, who told him all about the lamps and the IR scopes, which were fitted to Mosquito nightfighters but removed, and locked in a cupboard after each sortie. He also said that bomber pilots were never told of their true purpose, so that, if captured, they didn't inadvertently give away the information.
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My grateful thanks for all the information on WWII aircraft lighting. A friend at our church model club intends to build a large scale model Avro Lancaster and asked me to help with the lights. After searching many pages, including this one, I found twenty lights, including cockpit, navigator, w/op, navigation, formation, downward signalling, forward signalling, landing/taxy and dambuster spots.
Pending completion of the model, I am building a mock-up with a switch panel and a plan view of a Lanc with all the lights on. Above is a trial assembly of the panel.
Paxing All Over The World
Coming to this thread for the first time (due to mike-wsm's post today) and have read every post and can add some information, although more negative.
My late father operated in Night Fighters continously from September 1941 to the end of hostilities. he also wrote a book about it, published in 1999.
I do not have time to check the book today (I do have it electronically and can search it) but I do not recall him ever mentioning 'Resin lights'. One early night formation aid (Blenheim) was a white strip on the underside of a wing, illuminated by a dim bulb but that was abandoned.
My father operated in Beaus and then Mossies, primarily with 141 Sq. He was WO/Nav and they specialised in the various radar devices, from soon after they started. In Mossies, they were in the Bomber Support Defence Unit (BSDU) and followed the bombers out and back. However, they were independent of each other and did not fly formation. I'll see if I can find the time to search the files.
My late father operated in Night Fighters continously from September 1941 to the end of hostilities. he also wrote a book about it, published in 1999.
I do not have time to check the book today (I do have it electronically and can search it) but I do not recall him ever mentioning 'Resin lights'. One early night formation aid (Blenheim) was a white strip on the underside of a wing, illuminated by a dim bulb but that was abandoned.
My father operated in Beaus and then Mossies, primarily with 141 Sq. He was WO/Nav and they specialised in the various radar devices, from soon after they started. In Mossies, they were in the Bomber Support Defence Unit (BSDU) and followed the bombers out and back. However, they were independent of each other and did not fly formation. I'll see if I can find the time to search the files.
Last edited by PAXboy; 19th Sep 2012 at 15:01.
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PAXboy - very interesting - my second cousin was in 141 Squadron and wrote a book called simply 'Night Fighter'
Bob Braham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bob Braham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
