TAA and the DC-9
tucking the slats and flaps away on the way to 300 kts or thereabouts
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My God, Centaurus, were you an old style DCA Gruppeninspektor in a previous life? Talk about a wet, smelly three day old fish in our collective face...
I doubt there'd be many here who'd find your post "in the spirit" of this excellent, nostalgic thread of a time before political correctness had even been invented.
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One of the results of the DC9 being allowed to operate with two crew in Oz were the (I thought then and still think) wonderful Route Data Cards issued to DC9 crews in both companies.
They (DCA) thought the -9 was far too slick for a two man crew to be pulling out enroute charts to search for tracks and navaid frequencies, (and on my first few CB-SY sectors, I think I would have agreed with them!!!). So they made the RDCs mandatory for the -9 - and the 727 and F27 crews were very happy to use them as well!
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One of my many fond memories of the -9 was taking off out of Canberra one evening bound for Adelaide. We got airborne about ten minutes after sunset - and the aircraft's rate of climb was such that we managed to achieve a complete "sunrise" in the West, with the sun getting wholly above the horizon (and quite a bit clear of it) by the time we reached TOPC.
Both of us were absolutely gobsmacked. (As I recall, neither of us had ever seen this before that day.) We called the FAs (sorry, hosties) up to show them this absolute wonder, and they couldn't see what we were on about - totally unimpressed. They had far more important things on their minds, like serving 90 punters their meals.
I doubt there'd be many here who'd find your post "in the spirit" of this excellent, nostalgic thread of a time before political correctness had even been invented.
------------------
One of the results of the DC9 being allowed to operate with two crew in Oz were the (I thought then and still think) wonderful Route Data Cards issued to DC9 crews in both companies.
They (DCA) thought the -9 was far too slick for a two man crew to be pulling out enroute charts to search for tracks and navaid frequencies, (and on my first few CB-SY sectors, I think I would have agreed with them!!!). So they made the RDCs mandatory for the -9 - and the 727 and F27 crews were very happy to use them as well!
----------------
One of my many fond memories of the -9 was taking off out of Canberra one evening bound for Adelaide. We got airborne about ten minutes after sunset - and the aircraft's rate of climb was such that we managed to achieve a complete "sunrise" in the West, with the sun getting wholly above the horizon (and quite a bit clear of it) by the time we reached TOPC.
Both of us were absolutely gobsmacked. (As I recall, neither of us had ever seen this before that day.) We called the FAs (sorry, hosties) up to show them this absolute wonder, and they couldn't see what we were on about - totally unimpressed. They had far more important things on their minds, like serving 90 punters their meals.
There was no requirement of 250 below 10000 in those days and no TAA or Ansett DC-9 to my knowledge had a windscreen taken out by a bird. However at about that time , I recall tragically, there was an F-111 that was and of course recent events have proved how aircraft and birds don't mix. To be honest, I thought the 250 below 10000 was imported from the US as an ATC measure to process traffic. Never thought of it in bird impact terms - you never stop learning in this game. Of course no sensible bird would have been up flying in the fog...... and in those days "poltically correct risk assesment" was in the future...
Givelda
I believe you are correct. 250 below 10 is an ATC issue.
I seem to remember the 9 had a 5 layer windscreen, with 2 viynl layers, additionaly it was heated. Which in all gave it plenty of strength to withstand the "Frozen Chook Gun".
Likewise I do not recall TAA or Ansett ever having a problem in respect of windscreens and bird penetration.
If windscreen integrity was an issue it there would have been a Flight Manual limitation on the speed. There wasn't.
I agree with Wiley. I think Centaurus has some serious social issues.
Maui
I believe you are correct. 250 below 10 is an ATC issue.
I seem to remember the 9 had a 5 layer windscreen, with 2 viynl layers, additionaly it was heated. Which in all gave it plenty of strength to withstand the "Frozen Chook Gun".
Likewise I do not recall TAA or Ansett ever having a problem in respect of windscreens and bird penetration.
If windscreen integrity was an issue it there would have been a Flight Manual limitation on the speed. There wasn't.
I agree with Wiley. I think Centaurus has some serious social issues.
Maui
I think Centaurus has some serious social issues.
and I think you should be more specific or curb your tongue.
There was an AN DC9 C, Frizel?, based BNE round 1970. He went on local ABC radio one morning after doing SYD return and got all lyrical about the joys of the job. Could be in the archives. What was the TN at Mackay that lined up with highway lights and went round late?
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Cripes Centaurus, we're talkin' about the glories of the olden days mate!
We got away with it!
Never saw a high flyin' bird in some parts of the country yet knew about 'em in others and was wary.
Spotted a pelican at ten grand while heading out of Mt Isa for example. Boy did he get a fright when a dirty great roaring predator was comin' to get him.
He did what they all do in the last ditched emergency... folded his wings and dived.
On leaving the cockpit at the end of a flight from Melbourne many years ago, I had some puffed up highly important 100 hour Private Pilot admonish me for "dangerous flying" when I did the old 210 to 320 knot acceleration just above the seven thousand foot Strato-Cu. plain I'd descended through forty five minutes earlier.
I asked why it was dangerous.
"Another aircraft might have come out of the cloud and hit us".
My old man could give some really withering looks when he wanted to let one know they were talking cr*p.
I pretended I was him, and rudely told "the expert" to check out controlled airspace, clearances and separation.
Mug still thought HE was right, but I never had to stand before the SRC's desk and explain, so at least he didn't complain.
I could never believe the public. Occasionally while deadheading you'd see the boys do the scream "across the top" and feel the thrill of the speed. On looking around to see if others were enraptured, I was flabbergasted to see no one lookin'.
Bugger them I'd jam my nose back to the window pane waiting to see the mighty zoom away.
We got away with it!
Never saw a high flyin' bird in some parts of the country yet knew about 'em in others and was wary.
Spotted a pelican at ten grand while heading out of Mt Isa for example. Boy did he get a fright when a dirty great roaring predator was comin' to get him.
He did what they all do in the last ditched emergency... folded his wings and dived.
On leaving the cockpit at the end of a flight from Melbourne many years ago, I had some puffed up highly important 100 hour Private Pilot admonish me for "dangerous flying" when I did the old 210 to 320 knot acceleration just above the seven thousand foot Strato-Cu. plain I'd descended through forty five minutes earlier.
I asked why it was dangerous.
"Another aircraft might have come out of the cloud and hit us".
My old man could give some really withering looks when he wanted to let one know they were talking cr*p.
I pretended I was him, and rudely told "the expert" to check out controlled airspace, clearances and separation.
Mug still thought HE was right, but I never had to stand before the SRC's desk and explain, so at least he didn't complain.
I could never believe the public. Occasionally while deadheading you'd see the boys do the scream "across the top" and feel the thrill of the speed. On looking around to see if others were enraptured, I was flabbergasted to see no one lookin'.
Bugger them I'd jam my nose back to the window pane waiting to see the mighty zoom away.
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As a young fella (long time ago) I was lucky enough to get a jump seat ride on the midnight freighter out of Essendon to Launceston and back. Climbing out of Melbourne the window heater on the captains side shorted out. The MEL requirement was to limit speed to 250kts above and below 10000ft and the aircraft was out of action once returned to the nearest maintenance port until the fault was cleared
Last edited by cficare; 1st Feb 2009 at 22:43. Reason: spelling
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Reminds me of the time I was in LT and chatting to one of the old Airlines of Tasmania pilots. He was telling me that the heated windscreen in their Mojave had failed and all the air ambulance pilots had been given a rocket by their Manager for daring to use it. Didn't they understand that windscreens overheat! He also told them that he was working through the incident and believed some one had left the windscreen heat on ovenight. The culprit when found out was to be sacked immediately!!
The 250 below 10k restiction in the USA was originally brought in as a ATC measure in the early days of jet transports and the vast speed difference between them and the older piston powered airliners.
Initially proposed, in 1957, was a 160kt limit in the terminal area then 250 kt below 14,500' both of which the airlines argued would be too comercially prohibitive so 250kt below 10k was the eventual result.
Nothing to do with birds at the time. I've got a reference if anyone is interested, it's about two pages worth.
Regards,
BH.
Initially proposed, in 1957, was a 160kt limit in the terminal area then 250 kt below 14,500' both of which the airlines argued would be too comercially prohibitive so 250kt below 10k was the eventual result.
Nothing to do with birds at the time. I've got a reference if anyone is interested, it's about two pages worth.
Regards,
BH.
Pardon the digression. . . .
Same drongo who would not get off the air once he found someone else to yabber to. One time he was going on and on and when he finally unkeyed his mic up came the irrepressible Nige with 'Change hands Dallas. Change hands.'
been given a rocket by their Manager for daring to use it.
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We are talking about real men flying real aircraft knowing their and their aircraft limitations.
No!
VMO?MMO is VMO/MMO at all altitudes.
Out of many places, break out on top, accelerate to 320kts plus and climb; delightfully exhilarating!
250kts below 10,000, as indicated, eventuated in the US of A (and the initial SID?STARS did not have 250kts speed restriction)arriving here about the same time as political correctness, metrosexuals and `Girlie Man' aviation.
When the occasion arose, 320kts plus was optimism operating performance, saved the company time and fuel too!
In another of those delightful aircraft of the time (B727) out of Canberra, late at night cleared direct to the Sydney NDB, right turn at 500' agl accelerating to 380Kts within 15 nm, 380kt climb, cruise and descnt to 15 DME, land R/w 07; 17 minutes roll to stop.
Delightful aircraft, carefree days and great crews.
DK
I think most jets have a Vmo of around 300 KIAS below 10'000
VMO?MMO is VMO/MMO at all altitudes.
Out of many places, break out on top, accelerate to 320kts plus and climb; delightfully exhilarating!
250kts below 10,000, as indicated, eventuated in the US of A (and the initial SID?STARS did not have 250kts speed restriction)arriving here about the same time as political correctness, metrosexuals and `Girlie Man' aviation.
When the occasion arose, 320kts plus was optimism operating performance, saved the company time and fuel too!
In another of those delightful aircraft of the time (B727) out of Canberra, late at night cleared direct to the Sydney NDB, right turn at 500' agl accelerating to 380Kts within 15 nm, 380kt climb, cruise and descnt to 15 DME, land R/w 07; 17 minutes roll to stop.
Delightful aircraft, carefree days and great crews.
DK
Bottums Up
The venerable 146 has an AFM limitation of 250 kias < A080. If I recall the MoM correctly, it actually states that the restriction is for bird strike reasons.
The 717, a DC-9 on steroids, has no such limitation and a VMO of 340.
The 717, a DC-9 on steroids, has no such limitation and a VMO of 340.
I think that after the 250kts below 10k rule came in some aircraft constructors saw this as an avenue to use it as a 'birdstrike' prevention measure and design their aircraft accordingly.
Regards,
BH.
Regards,
BH.
Bottums Up
sixtiesrelic
I know. I was going to put a
after "venerable" but decided that at the end of the day, it did do what it did, fairly well, if more complicated than needed!
I know. I was going to put a
after "venerable" but decided that at the end of the day, it did do what it did, fairly well, if more complicated than needed!
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Ahhhh sixtiesrelic.... thank you for reminding me of the utter joy of skimmimg along just feet above the top of smooooth stratocu, best done into and out of Melbourne - (the city that should have been built on 4000' stilts).
Nothing's quite like breaking out of the Melbourne winter gloom into sparkling clear air and oh so BLUE skies - then clicking the AP out and holding her down just above the cloud until you almost reached red line. It wasn't just in the -9 you could play that game, but it's a memory I have from my -9 days.
Nothing's quite like breaking out of the Melbourne winter gloom into sparkling clear air and oh so BLUE skies - then clicking the AP out and holding her down just above the cloud until you almost reached red line. It wasn't just in the -9 you could play that game, but it's a memory I have from my -9 days.
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They used to talk about descent profiles, fuel saving and all that jazz, but it was a different era, prior to computer input and monitoring.
My ATC course included a two week airline attachment. One flight on a 727(100) from ML to AD, the FO was flying and for whatever reason decided to have the VSI at +6000'/min and ASI 350+ on descent into AD.
It seemed to be a pilot preferred option as to how this was achieved. It may have seen to be reckless, but those chaps really had options how they handled the aircraft. No STARS, close bases, and no FMS or whatever.
For good or bad, those days have gone, but boy it was fun!
Thanks for the memories.
My ATC course included a two week airline attachment. One flight on a 727(100) from ML to AD, the FO was flying and for whatever reason decided to have the VSI at +6000'/min and ASI 350+ on descent into AD.
It seemed to be a pilot preferred option as to how this was achieved. It may have seen to be reckless, but those chaps really had options how they handled the aircraft. No STARS, close bases, and no FMS or whatever.
For good or bad, those days have gone, but boy it was fun!
Thanks for the memories.