Fairey Rotodyne
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HH,
Why should the Rotodyne be more prone to hijacking than any other aircraft?
Why should the Rotodyne be more prone to hijacking than any other aircraft?
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If you look at the rotor propulsor system; basically you had four, narrow diameter, jet effluxes.
To provide enough energy to lift the beast bodily you required a very high jet efflux velocity to provide the overall mass flow out of the burners enough to give sufficient rotational thrust into the rotor system. These four,narrow diameter,extremely high velocity gas effluxes then had to dissipate their energy in to the ambient air. This velocity shear was what made the noise and,incidentally is why today's large diameter high by-pass jet engines are quieter, by flattening this gradient over a series of stages of progressively lessening efflux velocities.
In autorotational flight the Rotodyne was in the same order of noise magnitude as any other twin turboprop,however the translation to and from hovering flight (and its duration) was another matter entirely . The claimed "end in sight" for the tip jet noise problem was wishful thinking ,a few db possibly by exhaust noise attenuators, but the efflux velocity shear noise situation could not be realistically overcome.
Excuses made that this problem only affected a relatively small area close to the touchdown/lift off point would not have placated those powerful entities working in the City of London for example,I would suggest.
Now,perhaps,had you blown that efflux out along most of the outer trailing edge of the rotor instead ,taking notice of the Hunting H. 126 "Jet flap" concept ........
To provide enough energy to lift the beast bodily you required a very high jet efflux velocity to provide the overall mass flow out of the burners enough to give sufficient rotational thrust into the rotor system. These four,narrow diameter,extremely high velocity gas effluxes then had to dissipate their energy in to the ambient air. This velocity shear was what made the noise and,incidentally is why today's large diameter high by-pass jet engines are quieter, by flattening this gradient over a series of stages of progressively lessening efflux velocities.
In autorotational flight the Rotodyne was in the same order of noise magnitude as any other twin turboprop,however the translation to and from hovering flight (and its duration) was another matter entirely . The claimed "end in sight" for the tip jet noise problem was wishful thinking ,a few db possibly by exhaust noise attenuators, but the efflux velocity shear noise situation could not be realistically overcome.
Excuses made that this problem only affected a relatively small area close to the touchdown/lift off point would not have placated those powerful entities working in the City of London for example,I would suggest.
Now,perhaps,had you blown that efflux out along most of the outer trailing edge of the rotor instead ,taking notice of the Hunting H. 126 "Jet flap" concept ........
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"HH,
Why should the Rotodyne be more prone to hijacking than any other aircraft?"
None - I was comparing it to trains - which would be the main competetior to a 2020 Rotodyne. A lot of people on PPrune seem to want to spread the misery of security checks to long distance trains to "level the playing field"
Why should the Rotodyne be more prone to hijacking than any other aircraft?"
None - I was comparing it to trains - which would be the main competetior to a 2020 Rotodyne. A lot of people on PPrune seem to want to spread the misery of security checks to long distance trains to "level the playing field"
Having had to queue for a good 10 min to endure security checks for Eurostar from France back to UK, I can think of nothing more guaranteed to reduce the potential attraction of the ludicrous HS2....
A 2020 Rotodyne would need far less infrastructure than a high speed train, so could operate from a significantly greater number of locations.
A 2020 Rotodyne would need far less infrastructure than a high speed train, so could operate from a significantly greater number of locations.
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the moment you name one you'll be awash with lawyers and environmentalists as well as local MP's all screaming for your head.....................
and most HS trains run on tracks already built - in the UK for sure
I agree tho that HS2 is a ridiculous waste of money
and most HS trains run on tracks already built - in the UK for sure
I agree tho that HS2 is a ridiculous waste of money
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the moment you name one you'll be awash with lawyers and environmentalists as well as local MP's all screaming for your head.
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It'll go eventually - one more accident...........
But why should we have a heliport in the middle of London? It doesn't benifit 99.999% of the population (actually only around 0.0006% of the population use it) there and causes a lot of noise and some risk
But why should we have a heliport in the middle of London? It doesn't benifit 99.999% of the population (actually only around 0.0006% of the population use it) there and causes a lot of noise and some risk
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HH, at great risk of causing thread drift, it seems strange that someone such as your good self, who presumably earned a good living from controlling air traffic, is actually against "customers" (mine and yours) flying to a place they need to go.
Battersea isn't a very convenient place for most of those using it. Including government ministers et al. But it's the only one that serves the capital city. Unfortunately, the road journey from there to the city can be very long winded.
It's time the whole London infrastructure is reviewed (I believe this is being done).
Battersea isn't a very convenient place for most of those using it. Including government ministers et al. But it's the only one that serves the capital city. Unfortunately, the road journey from there to the city can be very long winded.
It's time the whole London infrastructure is reviewed (I believe this is being done).
ST,
I can jump in while HH is presumably asleep. I was under the the same impression as you that HH was an ATCO, but quite by chance, about a year ago, I discovered that hiding behind that very effective Nom-de-PPRuNe was a friend of mine.
Therefore I can tell you that he has exactly the same ATC experience as me - zero!
I should also tell you that he has a wicked sense of humour so sometimes it is hard to tell whether or not he has his tongue firmly in his cheek!
I can jump in while HH is presumably asleep. I was under the the same impression as you that HH was an ATCO, but quite by chance, about a year ago, I discovered that hiding behind that very effective Nom-de-PPRuNe was a friend of mine.
Therefore I can tell you that he has exactly the same ATC experience as me - zero!
I should also tell you that he has a wicked sense of humour so sometimes it is hard to tell whether or not he has his tongue firmly in his cheek!
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You mean he is a "troll"? That explains it, thanks.
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Like India Four Two I have a life long interest (and experience) of aircraft and operations in some fairly odd parts of the world
Sometimes I like to ask questions that others find unecessary or uncomfortable but , honestly, these are questions that others out in the wide world will or have asked.
PPrune can sometimes be a bit of a club of enthusiasts and practitioners and tends to self re-inforcing thought processes - not umcommon on the internet or anywhere else.
In this case I can assure you I've heard people ask the question re a heliport in C London - if you think it's necessary you will have to make the case and it it is an increasingly tough sell.
Sometimes you have to be provocative to stir people out of their comfort zone - no-one likes that happening to them (ask me!!) but it's better than being in a sleep of a thousand years. But I'd never trash anyone, and I try and be polite - and I always read the answers when I have time.
As for "a wicked sense of humour" ...hmmm - more often accidental I'm afraid .......... but I42 also has form in this area..............
Sometimes I like to ask questions that others find unecessary or uncomfortable but , honestly, these are questions that others out in the wide world will or have asked.
PPrune can sometimes be a bit of a club of enthusiasts and practitioners and tends to self re-inforcing thought processes - not umcommon on the internet or anywhere else.
In this case I can assure you I've heard people ask the question re a heliport in C London - if you think it's necessary you will have to make the case and it it is an increasingly tough sell.
Sometimes you have to be provocative to stir people out of their comfort zone - no-one likes that happening to them (ask me!!) but it's better than being in a sleep of a thousand years. But I'd never trash anyone, and I try and be polite - and I always read the answers when I have time.
As for "a wicked sense of humour" ...hmmm - more often accidental I'm afraid .......... but I42 also has form in this area..............
I tend to agree, that nowadays, it would be impossible to make a case for an air traffic facility -airport or heliport- within citycenters. It would make far more sense, I believe, to situate a/h ports at such places where public railtransport is available. Look at all major ports in the world, they invariably have a fast ground transportation to citycenters. It is therefore unbelievable, that Schiphol Airport is planning with Dutch Government, to divert all holiday flights (many ten thousands of flights) to a polder airfield with NO rail infrastructure. What a waste of money.
From a vertical point of view, a modern Rotodyne type could possibly alleviate the air traffic control conundrum in the at area, 20 kms from AMS, by rising above the the AMS traffic and then be on its way.
From a vertical point of view, a modern Rotodyne type could possibly alleviate the air traffic control conundrum in the at area, 20 kms from AMS, by rising above the the AMS traffic and then be on its way.
I don't think there has *ever* been a viable tip-jet-powered heli has there? All the ramjet ones were too noisy and too thirsty even as military emergency evac platforms, and the pulse-jet ones were even worse.
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When I lived in Hayes West London 20 years ago, I attended the final Fairey meet-up & spoke to a few retired staff there; one had a superb model of the Rotodyne,aboit 3ft long. Its rotor was connected to its engine airscrews, all correctly geared and such like.
He told us that the reason it wouldnt have been a success wasnt its engineering but its noise.It was incredibly loud by his account. When they flew the prototype over Fairey at Hayes, it shattered quite a few windows not only there but on houses in the surrounding roads. They were far from pleased & Fairey had to make good the repairs.....
He told us that the reason it wouldnt have been a success wasnt its engineering but its noise.It was incredibly loud by his account. When they flew the prototype over Fairey at Hayes, it shattered quite a few windows not only there but on houses in the surrounding roads. They were far from pleased & Fairey had to make good the repairs.....
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Does anybody know exactly how and why it went up in flames in a hangar fire?
Does anybody think is was industrial sabotage?
If so, by whom?
Was the project finished at that point, was it in storage?
I never got to see it, but I did have the AirFix model.
Similar demise and circumstances to the other ‘Great British World Beater’ the Optica.
By a strange coincidence in today’s USA Today newspaper is an article about UberFly. The new proposed rehash of this idea. All that is old, is new again.
Does anybody think is was industrial sabotage?
If so, by whom?
Was the project finished at that point, was it in storage?
I never got to see it, but I did have the AirFix model.
Similar demise and circumstances to the other ‘Great British World Beater’ the Optica.
By a strange coincidence in today’s USA Today newspaper is an article about UberFly. The new proposed rehash of this idea. All that is old, is new again.
Last edited by button push ignored; 11th Nov 2017 at 00:09.
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Errr..destroyed in hangar (note, not hangar!) fire?
Where did you get that piece of duff information from?
This from Wikipedia;
After the programme was terminated, the prototype Rotodyne itself, which was government property, was dismantled and largely destroyed in fashion reminiscent to that of the Bristol Brabazon. A single fuselage bay, as pictured, plus rotors and rotorhead mast survived and are on display at The Helicopter Museum, Weston-super-Mare.
Where did you get that piece of duff information from?
This from Wikipedia;
After the programme was terminated, the prototype Rotodyne itself, which was government property, was dismantled and largely destroyed in fashion reminiscent to that of the Bristol Brabazon. A single fuselage bay, as pictured, plus rotors and rotorhead mast survived and are on display at The Helicopter Museum, Weston-super-Mare.
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Errr..destroyed in hangar (note, not hangar!) fire?
Where did you get that piece of duff information from?
This from Wikipedia;
After the programme was terminated, the prototype Rotodyne itself, which was government property, was dismantled and largely destroyed in fashion reminiscent to that of the Bristol Brabazon. A single fuselage bay, as pictured, plus rotors and rotorhead mast survived and are on display at The Helicopter Museum, Weston-super-Mare.
Where did you get that piece of duff information from?
This from Wikipedia;
After the programme was terminated, the prototype Rotodyne itself, which was government property, was dismantled and largely destroyed in fashion reminiscent to that of the Bristol Brabazon. A single fuselage bay, as pictured, plus rotors and rotorhead mast survived and are on display at The Helicopter Museum, Weston-super-Mare.
Urban legend debunked.
If HS2 were simply a means to reduce travel time between London and Birmingham I'd heartily agree. That's not the case though. The driver for HS2 is fact that current railways from Euston and Kings Cross are full to capacity and it's pretty well impossible to increase that capacity while keeping line running.
Once you accept need for a new railway then it makes no sense to run it at Victorian speeds.
Once you accept need for a new railway then it makes no sense to run it at Victorian speeds.
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Well if we kept at Wilsonian speeds - 125 mph - it would cost a lot less and the time saving (givem you have to accelerate and deaccelerate) would be very little different
We could aslo invest in smarter signalling and the odd by-pass/multi level junction along the line to add capacity - or even longer trains...............
We could aslo invest in smarter signalling and the odd by-pass/multi level junction along the line to add capacity - or even longer trains...............
Longer trains are a non starter - they're already as long as, or in some locations longer than, the platforms. Trying to rebuild infrastructure while keeping the railway running also verges on the impossible - as those of us commuting through the 1999 - 2004 upgrade of the West Coast line will witness.