How did Britain loose the lead in aviation ?
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The next series of overseas low-level research flights took place in Norway with observers from the United States in attendance. Remember the Convair Delta Dagger?
Twiss set the speed record in March 1956 but by the end of the same year the F106 had flown. In Britain EE were starting to put together Lightnings with minimal mission equipment, multi pointer altimeters and the like, as would have not looked out of place in a Spitfire. Meantime the F106 had a fit, which included:
The Hughes MA-1 fire control system incorporated the first digital computer to be built into a fire control system. A datalink with NORAD's SAGE system meant that radio silence could be maintained throughout the intercept, while an autopilot allowed the ground controllers to "fly" the aircraft during the final approach to the target. A Tactical Situation Display (TSD) between the pilot's feet showed a moving map of the route across the ground during the intercept.
Breaking records is one thing, but it was years before Britain caught on to the issue of building integrated systems: airframe, engines AND avionics. When the British planemakers did finally go down that route, with the first Tornadoes, development suddenly became very protracted, what Roy Dommett politely refers to as the ‘engineering culture’ of British planemaking didn’t at first, lend itself to avionics development. - It's been noted that 50's era British aircraft tended to handle differently and have notable dimensional differences - the craft tradition of British planemaking expected less from the detail design draughtsman, but more from the skilled aircraft fitter.
This approach will not do for avionics development, and now its common practice to invest heavily in development test rigs and formal design methods.
But tooling, test rigs, investment - seems to have been an anathema to the post war British planemakers.
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Jetex Jim
Racal and GEC were trying to find a way of identifying Heat signatures from an Aircraft head on instead of the Rear.In the early 80s this was being tested at Hatfield with Dynamics on the North side.We did low runs down the runway at a stabilised JPT and different speeds and temps,so find out what was achievable.This progressed to Airborne attempts against a radar box set up in the door of a Twin Pin and then the same in a Wessex.I believe at the time,no one else had achieved anything like this,and it was meant to be a major factor in promoting the Nimrod as an AWACS.We lost the Buccs and then the Hunter and finally had to use 125s,but at least they were Vipers and not Garretts,so we had a chance of producing some form of heat signature,although the speeds could not be replicated.It seemed there were stumbling blocks put in the way ,when a definite advance had been made.As I stated the whole department at Racal were decimated in the Navajo accident ,along with most of the GEC guys.What was particularly strange was that on the Flights to and from Woodford/Northolt/Rochester/Leavesden,it was SOP to use more than one Aircraft if there were more than 4 pax .I believe 11 were killed along with the Oxaero Pilot,so not only were all 10 pax seats used ,but it was single crew,and a Pax in the right hand seat.The usual 2 Aircraft for this trip was to be out of Leavesden with 2 Kingairs,but that was fogbound,so it was deemed too expensive to position to Luton empty,with limos taking the pax seperately.It was blamed on a QNH/QFE error between the Pilots setting and what ATC gave him.Again coincidence or what?I was only doing some of the flying,so my detailed knowledge of the program was purely related to JPT temps and what was produced on the equipment,having been told it was vitally important for the Nimrod AWACS.There was general doom and gloom when it was terminated.
Very little mention of the 748 in these posts. Almost 400 were built, and sold to eighty operators in fifty countries around the world.
The 146 would have been more successful had it not been the victim of politics. For example, attempts to sell the 146 to Varig for the Ponte Aerea (Air Bridge) between Rio and Sao Paulo, for which it was pefectly suited, were thwarted by US political pressure to buy the 737, which even today cannot land at Santos Dumont (Rio) when it has been raining heavily.
The 125 had sold more than 900 units into 45 different countries when the division was sold to Raytheon. During the same period, 492 Falcon 20s and 485 Sabreliners were sold. In the early nineties, 125s were selling at the rate of one every ten days.
Just the other side of the coin from someone whose job was selling them!
The 146 would have been more successful had it not been the victim of politics. For example, attempts to sell the 146 to Varig for the Ponte Aerea (Air Bridge) between Rio and Sao Paulo, for which it was pefectly suited, were thwarted by US political pressure to buy the 737, which even today cannot land at Santos Dumont (Rio) when it has been raining heavily.
The 125 had sold more than 900 units into 45 different countries when the division was sold to Raytheon. During the same period, 492 Falcon 20s and 485 Sabreliners were sold. In the early nineties, 125s were selling at the rate of one every ten days.
Just the other side of the coin from someone whose job was selling them!
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I think we were despairing of the Aviation Marvels produced by the British Aviation Industry over the last 50 years that were wasted by lack of Government interest!The 125 and 748 were successes,with the Whisper Jet as a possible other,if it had got decent engines.I never flew the 748 but flew many hours in its competitor,the F27,also with Darts and "i see 6 lights" for the prop control.However the Advanced Technical Problem ,or stretched 748,was what it was called earlier!The 125 was the first executive jet,I think,where the pax could walk up and down without bending,also it was a joy to fly,especially a 400 with Garretts,but until the 800 and now 1000 let down by range.the Jetstar might have had a roomy cabin,but I never experienced it ,so I reckon the 125 especially when it was called the Jet Dragon and still DeHavilland,was the first to accomodate the Standing Man.If you were sales,what happened to C2 in Australia?
I think we were despairing of the Aviation Marvels produced by the British Aviation Industry over the last 50 years that were wasted by lack of Government interest!
Yes, the clever use of the 'well' as it was known, meant that 6-footers like me could walk around without looking like Quasimodo! The 1000 did make the aircraft transatlantic (eastbound at least!), but no funds were made available to further its design, and suitable engines could not be found at the time.
Not sure about the C2. Oz wasn't one of my territories (unfortunately!). I've just checked Bill Gunston's book, and there's no mention in there either.
I confess to deliberately avoiding mention of the ATP - less said the better!
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Originally Posted by Jetex Jim
Its easy to picture those cunning yanks running a furtive tape measure over the FD2 and then dashing home to knock out a few hundred Delta Daggers. - In fact the Dagger linage goes back to 1948, and Convair had gone back to the source - Dr Lippisch - one the Operation Paperclip scientists, and developed the line through the XF92, to the F102 Delta Dagger which first flew in 1953, which by my reckoning is a year before the FD2 first flew. As with so many other ‘British’ developments, the delta was derived from wartime German research.
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I believe the author wasn't suggesting that Convair copied the FD2 but that the FD2 wasn't allowed to develop into a fighter.
Or does it really mean:
UK MoD did not feel inclined to fund another manufacturer to turn yet another development aircraft into a supersonic fighter when they were already paying for the Lightning?
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Barry Lloyd
Csquared (C2) was John Canning Cook,ex FAA Pilot who was in 125 sales,and went out to Oz for Sales and died!!!!I never knew how or exactly when?I went out to Nigeria with Des Penrose,for a Big Ogga,until the Coup in 83,and went back 85.Sorry to drift off the subject.You could not quite make the FL of a G2 or a Lear,but you could fly the 125 like a fighter,and the Descent from 410 overhead Zarsatine,to land was mind blowing.Happy Days
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I confess to deliberately avoiding mention of the ATP - less said the better
FAStoat
Ah, that C2! And there was I thinking that there was a typo, and I had in mind the C2s, (technically CC2s if course) which were orginally supplied to the RAF! Sadly, I know no more than you, and have lost contact with many of my former colleagues. I remember him well though, and he was fondly regarded by all of us.
Yes, the 125 certainly had a fighter-like performance. I remember taking off from Hatfield for Moscow once, and under the guidance of eastern radar we were at FL 410 by the east coast of the UK!
Happy days indeed!
Brian
The ATR 72 was of course a major competitor, as the Dash 8-400 eventually became. When I left that division of BAe in 1988, they (P&W) had still not found a way to significantly increase engine power, and BAe (perhaps sensing/knowing by that time that they would not stay in the civil aircraft business for too much longer), decided it was not worth investing in improvements to it, and of course production was moved to Prestwick, possibly for political reasons.
Many people within BAe at the time thought that a better option would have been to put the P&W 124 onto an improved 748 airframe (as Fokker did with the F50), but a decison had been taken to go ahead with the ATP. The rest, as they say, is history.
Ah, that C2! And there was I thinking that there was a typo, and I had in mind the C2s, (technically CC2s if course) which were orginally supplied to the RAF! Sadly, I know no more than you, and have lost contact with many of my former colleagues. I remember him well though, and he was fondly regarded by all of us.
Yes, the 125 certainly had a fighter-like performance. I remember taking off from Hatfield for Moscow once, and under the guidance of eastern radar we were at FL 410 by the east coast of the UK!
Happy days indeed!
Brian
The ATR 72 was of course a major competitor, as the Dash 8-400 eventually became. When I left that division of BAe in 1988, they (P&W) had still not found a way to significantly increase engine power, and BAe (perhaps sensing/knowing by that time that they would not stay in the civil aircraft business for too much longer), decided it was not worth investing in improvements to it, and of course production was moved to Prestwick, possibly for political reasons.
Many people within BAe at the time thought that a better option would have been to put the P&W 124 onto an improved 748 airframe (as Fokker did with the F50), but a decison had been taken to go ahead with the ATP. The rest, as they say, is history.
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FAStoat
This sounds like what's now usually called FLIR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLIR
A way of imaging with non-visible, infra red light.
I wasn't aware that it was a feature of Nimrod AEW but various pod mounted systems have been produced as add ons for other aircraft. Now Typhoon has it as a part of the sensor system, where its information can be 'fused' with other inputs to optimise accuracy.
http://www.eurofighter.com/et_as_sf_ir.asp
Racal and GEC were trying to find a way of identifying Heat signatures from an Aircraft head on instead of the Rear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLIR
A way of imaging with non-visible, infra red light.
I wasn't aware that it was a feature of Nimrod AEW but various pod mounted systems have been produced as add ons for other aircraft. Now Typhoon has it as a part of the sensor system, where its information can be 'fused' with other inputs to optimise accuracy.
http://www.eurofighter.com/et_as_sf_ir.asp
Last edited by Jetex Jim; 16th Mar 2008 at 13:55.
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Barry
Thanks for that about C2,but it seems the same story ,a blank.I will try elsewhere,since I knew him quite well at one time.They were happy days indeed.The delights of people like "Foul Weather Mac",and the" Bugger it "factor!!!Many intrepid across the Pond deliveries were made with superb judgement is all I can say!!.When I was signed off P1 across,it was another piece of pure luck ,that I feel some one up there looks after you.The 125 world,was real fun!Even in Nigeria,with the Bushman(Bob Ogden,now departed),and ACN with chief Pilot Arthur Chea,known as Cato for his random Karate techniques,Erik the Red with the longest single engined flight from Algiers to Kano,because his F/O would no go back into Morocco.I could go on ,but it brings tears to the eyes!!!!!!
