Vickers Viking 1B - G-AIVE crash, Irish Law, nr Largs, April 1948
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Vickers Viking 1B - G-AIVE crash, Irish Law, nr Largs, April 1948
On the evening of Wednesday 21 April 1948 a British European Airways Vickers Viking aircraft flight S200P out of Northolt bound for RenfrewAirport struck Irish Law in the North Ayrshire hills. Miraculously, all 20 passengers and crew on board escaped before the aircraft was consumed by flames. Today, substantial wreckage is still present on the windswept hillside. Dougie Martindale and myself are researching this maraculous incident with a view to publishing a substantial piece.
Already we have unearthed a substantial amount of information, however, we would be keen to hear from anyone in this forum who may have any further information.
Pilot: John Ramsden
Co-pilot: Denis Clifton
Radio Officer: Arnold Lloyd
Steward: C Moroney
Please feel free to private message me if you have any information. I also have a message group which anyone interested is welcome to join.
Cheers,
James Towill
Already we have unearthed a substantial amount of information, however, we would be keen to hear from anyone in this forum who may have any further information.
Pilot: John Ramsden
Co-pilot: Denis Clifton
Radio Officer: Arnold Lloyd
Steward: C Moroney
Please feel free to private message me if you have any information. I also have a message group which anyone interested is welcome to join.
Cheers,
James Towill
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Hopefully some useful publicity gained as a result of this article:
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/d...319678.0.0.php
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/d...319678.0.0.php
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The project is progressing well. We have had some excellent press coverage including the Evening Times, Largs & Millport News, Sunday Post, and a large article is forthcoming in the Scottish Sunday Express on 10 June.
We have been able to speak with a relative of one of the passengers, a friend of another and have a few more leads to follow up.
We have been able to speak with a relative of one of the passengers, a friend of another and have a few more leads to follow up.
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I have loaded good quality scans all press coverage of our project onto the photographs section of the yahoogroups homepage we have at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VikingCrash1948/
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Hi All
Just bumping this post up again. We have some details on John Ramsden which may help to trigger some memories...
DoB: 10 July 1919
Qualified as RAF pilot 1940Had Class B pilot's licence endorsed for DH89, DH89A, Dakota, Ju52 and Vikings.
Landed at Renfrew nearly 400 times in two years.
Lived in Newton Mearns, East Renfrewshire.
Was English.
Flew Rapides from Donibristle, Fife. Flew for the FAA for Communciations Flight.
Does any of this trigger any memories with anyone? If so, no matter how small a fragment, we'd like to hear from you! Many thanks.
Just bumping this post up again. We have some details on John Ramsden which may help to trigger some memories...
DoB: 10 July 1919
Qualified as RAF pilot 1940Had Class B pilot's licence endorsed for DH89, DH89A, Dakota, Ju52 and Vikings.
Landed at Renfrew nearly 400 times in two years.
Lived in Newton Mearns, East Renfrewshire.
Was English.
Flew Rapides from Donibristle, Fife. Flew for the FAA for Communciations Flight.
Does any of this trigger any memories with anyone? If so, no matter how small a fragment, we'd like to hear from you! Many thanks.
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Scans of our project press coverage can be found at http://www.atcu04.dsl.pipex.com/vickers_viking2.htm and subsequent pages. Enjoy!
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We're very sorry to announce that Denis Clifton passed away late last
night (28th September 2007) at the age of 84. Denis – or Cliff as he
liked to be known - was the First Officer on the Viking flight in
1948. He was particularly helpful in aiding the survivors of the
Viking crash. Realising that the elements might take their toll before
search parties could find them, he made the correct decision that they
should make their own way to safety. He then led the third party of
survivors down from the crash site to safety.
We were fortunate enough to contact Cliff four months ago. Over the
past four months we talked with him by telephone on a number of
occasions. It was immediately obvious from the first call what a warm,
friendly, generous and unassuming man Cliff was. He was very positive
about our project and answered so many queries we had about the
accident. Cliff invited us both to meet and stay with him at his home
near London, which we had planned to undertake in November.
Only four nights ago we discussed with Cliff his long, varied and
fruitful aviation career. Stretching over four decades, he flew
assorted aircraft in a range of conditions all around the world. His
career started in 1940 when he joined the RAF at the age of 17. A year
later he learned to fly in Canada, training in sub-zero conditions on
Tiger Moths and then Harvards. Qualifying in May 1943, Cliff then flew
anti-sub patrols in Hudsons from near Halifax in Canada. In 1944 he
was quickly sent out to Burma. After a rapid conversion course, Cliff
did supply and troop droppings duties and glider towing in C-47s.
After being de-mobbed in 1946, his civil career began. Flying for BEA
and later British Airways, he flew a range of aircraft: Vikings,
Ambassadors, Viscounts, Vanguards, Tridents and Tristars. He then
became a Senior Training Captain with BA on Tridents and Tristars, and
later flew long haul flights all around the world on Tristars. In 1978
he left BA to join Gulf Air, where he served as a Senior Training
Captain on Tristars. During this time he was based in Bahrain and
later Hong Kong. After retiring in July 1983, BALPA awarded him a well
deserved BALPA Gold Star.
Other than the Viking accident, Cliff had another very close call in
September 1962. Just after taking off from Turnhouse in a Vanguard,
the aircraft was struck by 120 seagulls. Two engines failed, while the
other two were very close to failure. As Captain, Cliff particularly
distinguished himself by steering the aircraft back to Turnhouse. The
subsequent report read: "A serious and almost certainly fatal accident
was only narrowly averted. This was due to the exemplary manner in
which the emergency was handled by Captain Clifton and his crew: the
Captain displayed the highest possible standard of airmanship." For
his actions on this day, Cliff received a Queens Commendation medal.
Our memories of Denis Clifton will be of a man who achieved a great
deal through his aviation career, and as a man who could keep his
composure under the most intense circumstances. But we will remember
him also as a true gentleman.
Our thoughts are with his wife and family.
James Towill and Dougie Martindale
night (28th September 2007) at the age of 84. Denis – or Cliff as he
liked to be known - was the First Officer on the Viking flight in
1948. He was particularly helpful in aiding the survivors of the
Viking crash. Realising that the elements might take their toll before
search parties could find them, he made the correct decision that they
should make their own way to safety. He then led the third party of
survivors down from the crash site to safety.
We were fortunate enough to contact Cliff four months ago. Over the
past four months we talked with him by telephone on a number of
occasions. It was immediately obvious from the first call what a warm,
friendly, generous and unassuming man Cliff was. He was very positive
about our project and answered so many queries we had about the
accident. Cliff invited us both to meet and stay with him at his home
near London, which we had planned to undertake in November.
Only four nights ago we discussed with Cliff his long, varied and
fruitful aviation career. Stretching over four decades, he flew
assorted aircraft in a range of conditions all around the world. His
career started in 1940 when he joined the RAF at the age of 17. A year
later he learned to fly in Canada, training in sub-zero conditions on
Tiger Moths and then Harvards. Qualifying in May 1943, Cliff then flew
anti-sub patrols in Hudsons from near Halifax in Canada. In 1944 he
was quickly sent out to Burma. After a rapid conversion course, Cliff
did supply and troop droppings duties and glider towing in C-47s.
After being de-mobbed in 1946, his civil career began. Flying for BEA
and later British Airways, he flew a range of aircraft: Vikings,
Ambassadors, Viscounts, Vanguards, Tridents and Tristars. He then
became a Senior Training Captain with BA on Tridents and Tristars, and
later flew long haul flights all around the world on Tristars. In 1978
he left BA to join Gulf Air, where he served as a Senior Training
Captain on Tristars. During this time he was based in Bahrain and
later Hong Kong. After retiring in July 1983, BALPA awarded him a well
deserved BALPA Gold Star.
Other than the Viking accident, Cliff had another very close call in
September 1962. Just after taking off from Turnhouse in a Vanguard,
the aircraft was struck by 120 seagulls. Two engines failed, while the
other two were very close to failure. As Captain, Cliff particularly
distinguished himself by steering the aircraft back to Turnhouse. The
subsequent report read: "A serious and almost certainly fatal accident
was only narrowly averted. This was due to the exemplary manner in
which the emergency was handled by Captain Clifton and his crew: the
Captain displayed the highest possible standard of airmanship." For
his actions on this day, Cliff received a Queens Commendation medal.
Our memories of Denis Clifton will be of a man who achieved a great
deal through his aviation career, and as a man who could keep his
composure under the most intense circumstances. But we will remember
him also as a true gentleman.
Our thoughts are with his wife and family.
James Towill and Dougie Martindale
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The first edition of our newsletter, Viking Crash Research News, is now available. Please send a PM with your email address if you would like a PDF copy.
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Sorry for the delay in responding. Our main interest is this particular crash, but we also have an interest in other Viking incidents of this era.
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A bit late, but...!
As the days draw closer to a new year and the 60th anniversary of the crash of Viking G-AIVE on Irish Law, we thought we’d announce that we will be holding an event at Lochwinnoch RSPB Visitor Centre at 1pm on Sunday 20 April 2008 – the day before the 60th anniversary of the incident. On the day, James and Dougie will be giving an illustrated talk on the project which will also include the first public airing of video footage of Vestal’s steward, the late Con Moroney, talking about his experience of the crash. We also hope to have a couple of surprises on the day!
At this stage in the project, we’re piecing together all the information obtained from a plethora of sources and assembling it into readable, logical format! Looking through the folders of paper copies, correspondence, maps and technical data, and delving into numerous computer files it is really pleasing to have located all this valuable information in a comparatively short period of time. There are still a few little areas to be clarified, but the ‘research phase’ of the project has more or less been concluded – that’s not to say if more information becomes available that we won’t be interested!
Of course, our research would have been far less profitable had it not been for us communicating with a great many people who have helped us with details of their relatives, friends, colleagues and the events of that night nearly 60 years ago. To all of them, a great many thanks. We are also pleased that so many other people have expressed an interest in the project, with over 70 recipients of our Viking Crash Research News publication in locations as far away as Ireland, the US, Canada and Australia. Our press coverage, from local newsletters and papers to national publications proves that there is great interest in what - pardon the cliché - was a ‘miracle escape’.
In other news, Dougie has nearly completed a 1:72nd scale model of Viking G-AIVE. A resin and white metal kit was used as the basis of the model, with extra details added in brass rod. The painting has almost been finished, with only the decals left to apply. These decals were custom designed so that Vestal could be depicted in the livery worn at the time of the crash. The model will be on display at our April event.
Through Lady Hunter, we have made contact with Mrs Brenda Moore, who has kindly provided us with details about her late husband Hobart Moore and his colleague Jimmy Wilson. We had guessed that Mr Moore and Mr Wilson were travelling together on business but she has been able to confirm this. We have also been able to trace some details of the last years of the Captain of the flight, John Ramsden. An appeal for information is due to appear in the March 2008 edition of Icarus, the publication for retired employees of British Airways (and BEA/BOAC) and we hope that this might produce further details of both John Ramsden, and the Radio Officer, Arnold Lloyd. Both of these players in the story have been possibly the most difficult to locate information about.
It just remains for both of us to thank you all for your kindness and interest in our project. We wish you very best wishes for 2008.
As the days draw closer to a new year and the 60th anniversary of the crash of Viking G-AIVE on Irish Law, we thought we’d announce that we will be holding an event at Lochwinnoch RSPB Visitor Centre at 1pm on Sunday 20 April 2008 – the day before the 60th anniversary of the incident. On the day, James and Dougie will be giving an illustrated talk on the project which will also include the first public airing of video footage of Vestal’s steward, the late Con Moroney, talking about his experience of the crash. We also hope to have a couple of surprises on the day!
At this stage in the project, we’re piecing together all the information obtained from a plethora of sources and assembling it into readable, logical format! Looking through the folders of paper copies, correspondence, maps and technical data, and delving into numerous computer files it is really pleasing to have located all this valuable information in a comparatively short period of time. There are still a few little areas to be clarified, but the ‘research phase’ of the project has more or less been concluded – that’s not to say if more information becomes available that we won’t be interested!
Of course, our research would have been far less profitable had it not been for us communicating with a great many people who have helped us with details of their relatives, friends, colleagues and the events of that night nearly 60 years ago. To all of them, a great many thanks. We are also pleased that so many other people have expressed an interest in the project, with over 70 recipients of our Viking Crash Research News publication in locations as far away as Ireland, the US, Canada and Australia. Our press coverage, from local newsletters and papers to national publications proves that there is great interest in what - pardon the cliché - was a ‘miracle escape’.
In other news, Dougie has nearly completed a 1:72nd scale model of Viking G-AIVE. A resin and white metal kit was used as the basis of the model, with extra details added in brass rod. The painting has almost been finished, with only the decals left to apply. These decals were custom designed so that Vestal could be depicted in the livery worn at the time of the crash. The model will be on display at our April event.
Through Lady Hunter, we have made contact with Mrs Brenda Moore, who has kindly provided us with details about her late husband Hobart Moore and his colleague Jimmy Wilson. We had guessed that Mr Moore and Mr Wilson were travelling together on business but she has been able to confirm this. We have also been able to trace some details of the last years of the Captain of the flight, John Ramsden. An appeal for information is due to appear in the March 2008 edition of Icarus, the publication for retired employees of British Airways (and BEA/BOAC) and we hope that this might produce further details of both John Ramsden, and the Radio Officer, Arnold Lloyd. Both of these players in the story have been possibly the most difficult to locate information about.
It just remains for both of us to thank you all for your kindness and interest in our project. We wish you very best wishes for 2008.
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Over the past 18 months we have been researching the crash for our book Viking Down!, with an intended publication date in 2009. To commemorate the 60th anniversary of the crash, we are holding an event at the RSPB Nature Reserve Centre at Lochwinnoch at 2pmonSunday 20th April 2008. This is a free event and all are welcome. To book a place at the event please call the reserve on 01505 842663 or email [email protected].
During the event, we will be holding an illustrated talk detailing many aspects of our project. This talk will cover how and why the crash occurred, and show just how ‘close a call’ it had been for them all. But we will also concentrate upon the human element of the story by discussing the lives of the passengers and crew. We will discuss how they escaped from the burning plane, how they fared on the hillside, and their treks to safety.
The steward’s two sons are both intending to travel from Buckinghamshire to the event. They are kindly allowing us to show some fascinating video footage of their father Con Moroney discussing the crash. Dougie’s father John Martindale will also be delivering a slide show covering some of more interesting wrecks he found in the 70s with the investigation group SWAIG. This will feature a few of the local wrecks, the Hudson on Ben Lui, and the story of how the group were involved in the recovery of a German bomber’s engine from the Moray Firth.
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We've heard that the Sunday Post article on the crash will appear on
page 33 of this Sunday's edition (30th March). The article is likely
to be a full page feature, covering our progress and the 60th
anniversary event on the 20th April. Hopefully worth a wander down to
the local newsagent!
The Paisley & Renfrewshire Gazette are also running a feature on the
crash, due out on Wednesday 2nd April.
James and I have been busy preparing for our talk at the anniversary
event. You are all more than welcome to join us at 2pm on Sunday 20th
April at RSPB Lochwinnoch Nature Reserve Centre. To book a place,
either call 01505 842663 or email us directly. If you need directions
to the reserve don't hesitate to email either of us and we will send
you details.
page 33 of this Sunday's edition (30th March). The article is likely
to be a full page feature, covering our progress and the 60th
anniversary event on the 20th April. Hopefully worth a wander down to
the local newsagent!
The Paisley & Renfrewshire Gazette are also running a feature on the
crash, due out on Wednesday 2nd April.
James and I have been busy preparing for our talk at the anniversary
event. You are all more than welcome to join us at 2pm on Sunday 20th
April at RSPB Lochwinnoch Nature Reserve Centre. To book a place,
either call 01505 842663 or email us directly. If you need directions
to the reserve don't hesitate to email either of us and we will send
you details.
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Johnny Ramsden
I go back to the night of 14 September 1968. I was a co-pilot with BEA on the Vanguard fleet flying with Maurice Thom as captain. I think that Maurice and Johnny Ramsden were old pals from the immediate post war period if not pre-war also. I went, with Maurice to a bar in Gibraltar by the name of 'The Nine Tombs', ' to have a look at Johnny.' That was the same Captain Johnny Ramsden, who appeared to me to own, or manage, the bar at that time. I was told about the Viking crash by Maurice before we entered the bar, but I remember that Johnny made the odd reference to it himself. Nice to talk to someone who's made his own little bit of aviation history and survived.. We learn from incidents like that.
The Nine Tombs itself was of archaeological interest and you may find reference to it elsewhere on the web.
Best wishes
Water
The Nine Tombs itself was of archaeological interest and you may find reference to it elsewhere on the web.
Best wishes
Water
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As I send these words to you, it was 60 years ago - give or take a few minutes - that BEA Vickers Viking G-AIVE impacted on the side of Irish Law near Largs.
And so was to begin a remarkable story of survival which myself and Dougie have been researching for nearly two years.
Yesterday, we presented a talk on our project to a 'capacity crowd' of over 30 people at a village not too far away from the incident area. We were delighted to be joined by two of the sons of the steward on board the flight, Con Moroney. Today, Shaun and Martin visited the crash site; thankfully it would appear the weather was much better than on 21 April 1948!
We would like to continue to thank you for your interest in the project and we'll continue to keep you updated on developments.
Best wishes,
James Towill and Dougie Martindale
Yahoo webgroup - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vikingcrash1948/
Many congratulations, James and Dougie, on bringing your intensive research to such an interesting and successful conclusion, and very appropriately timed too. Keep us posted!
I was also very interested in your background on Captain Ramsden, specifically that he "Flew Rapides from Donibristle, Fife. Flew for the FAA for Communciations Flight" since my first ever flight was actually in the RNAS Donibristle Rapide (or Dominie as Service DH89As were known) - albeit many years later - but probably the same aircraft.
Jack (aka Jock)
I was also very interested in your background on Captain Ramsden, specifically that he "Flew Rapides from Donibristle, Fife. Flew for the FAA for Communciations Flight" since my first ever flight was actually in the RNAS Donibristle Rapide (or Dominie as Service DH89As were known) - albeit many years later - but probably the same aircraft.
Jack (aka Jock)