The right camera

[REF]

Hi all

Probably the wrong area to post this in, but seeing as the results usually end up here I thought I'd post here. (mods, apologies if it is the wrong place)

I want to buy a new camera and I really don't know where to start.

criteria;

1 - I need something for airshow photography.
2 - Interchangeable lenses.
3 - Bearing in mind that I am very amateur it needs to be easy to use.
4 - Affordable.
5 - I guess its obvious but I'd like a digital camera.
6 - Easy to use.
7 - Easy to use.
8 - Easy to use.
9 - Easy to use.
10 - Easy to use.

Any suggestions please.

Most of my photography can be seen here,

Richard Flaggs Collection of Aircraft & Airfield Pictures

Rick

[AlanM]

When you say affordable..... depends if you are a penniless student or eccentric millionaire!

If the former - go for something like an EOS350D. If the latter go for an EOS1DmkIIN.

Some of mine from a digital camera are at www.kbmphotography.com and www.pbase.com/kbmphotography

[chiglet]

REF,
My choice of camera would be a Nikon D70 with the 19-70 lens. had mine for nearly two years now and it's SU-FLIPPIN'-PERB. I alsp have a Nikkor G 70-300 F4.5-5.6 lens..£99 delivered from a big dealer in London.
Liked your photies of Capel, it's a very moving place. Two extremes...the Sea Memorial on the Ho at Plymouth, and the Commando Memorial at Spean Bridge near Fort William.
Keep up the good work
watp,iktch

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Just DON'T think of an EOS20 (now obsolete, surprise, surprise). As a Canon user for 40+ years I would very strongly recommend Nikon. Our son has a Nikon (not sure which, but not too expesnive) for astro photography and it's very good.

Having had a good number of different cameras in our family, the very best bar none was a Fuji 9600 zoom - fairly cheapo digi which unfortunately does not have interchangeable lenses but the pictures from which beat anything else we've had (including my Canon with "L" lenses)

[Conan the Librarian]

I think the Nikon D70 is an epic choice and particularly in the next few weeks. Why? It is being replaced by a new Nikon tomorrow. Fabulous camera, but you will need a biggish zoom for airshows. At least 300mm and preferably 400 to 500. These lenses are fairly expensive, but will form the heart of your system - NOT the camera body :-)

You have many more options now than a year ago and in a sense, it is more confusing. If you are starting in digital SLR cameras, the Nikon D50 is a tremendous bargain and provides superb quality. I used to use a D70 but upgraded to the Nikon D200. I cannot honestly recommend this camera at this time as it has given me nothing but grief since purchase and until this issue is resolved would rather keep quiet, (2nd body, too) although for airshows, it should easily outshine the D70. The Canon EOS30D is a great bargain right now, and if you get either Nikon or Canon, then I am sure that you would be delighted.

Physical handling, is something very important. If it feels right and feels good, then you are in a better position all around. If you for instance, sat a Nikon D50/70 next to a Canon EOS350D I would be confident which you would put down first.

There is so much that I could say here, but the best bet, is to ask the question and I and others will do our best to answer it. It can all become rather expensive, as the camera body is just the start point. Apart from lenses there are memory cards and better software to process your pictures, plus all sorts of other little add ons that will keep your "Oblivion Express" card in regular use. Let us know what you have in mind other than airshows and we can try to help a little more.

My own D70 airshow shots can be found in my Photodump here. There are some goodies, some average and a few howlers. It is just a repository, but you are most welcome to have a look around.

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/zorbathegeek/

Conan

[Mark 1]

I've just bought the Nikon D50 - excellent and very easy to use. £360 with 18-55 if you know where to look. The D70 is quite a bit more expensive and doesn't really offer any extra useful features.

Next on the shopping list is the Nikon 18-200 VR (vibration reduction) lens =28-300mm in 35mm terms. Only snag is they haven't made enough for the huge demand at £550 a throw (I'm number 508 on Jessop's waiting list)

[Conan the Librarian]

Mark, the D50 is an excellent beginner camera and is now at a ridiculously low price. The D70S does offer more in handling and a better frame rate. It has more growth in it, though the D50 picture quality is mind numbing and possibly has even less noise, in some peoples view. With either of these cameras, the only shots that you won't be able to rescue, will be those where you left the lenscap on.

By the way, you are being rooked for the 18-200VR. £489 for mine and arrives next week. This lens is a good one, offering extremely large range, great optics and Vibration Reduction, or Image Stabilisation in Canonspeak. The reviews are all very complimentary and it could well be the "Walk around" lens to die for. Mind you, with Nikons lassitude in getting it into the marketplace, some of us might already have died - of old age.

Conan

[REF]

I was thinking of a Nikon D70 or D70s. From what people are saying here and elsewhere this seems to be the sensble choice. It will be just mainly at airshows and aircraft that I'll be photographing. Any suggestions on where to look for a good one? not knowing much about digital SLRs I wouldn't know what sort of price to pay. I was quoted £390 for the body of a D70s and then £199 for small lens. For the 400 lens I was quoted £300. Does this sound reasonable? I don't want to rush into buying one, just as long as I make the right choice.

Conan - some good shots on your site as well, I enjoyed looking at them.

[GK430]

I have a 2 yr old 10D lying idle since getting a 5D.
Whilst I have to agree that the lens becomes a major issue at airshows, the leap in resolution/file size is incredible once you step up. I can easily tell which body was used when I have used both the 5D and the 10D on the same day at the same airfield.
Try Park on Google and check.....although I do not buy in the UK.

[Conan the Librarian]

Ref, take my tip and sit on your hands for a week or two. The D70 replacement is publicly unveiled tomorrow and this can't help D70 prices much. D50 either, come to think of it, though not by as much.

Lenses are another story. Some of those shots of mine were taken with the Magic Drainpipe - a 50-500 Sigma, which is out of this World for aviation shots and allows you to pick them off all the way aound the pattern, thus taking advantage of the best lighting/time of day. Very sharp, very powerful, but a bit big and heavy. Lots of other options, but to reinforce my earlier comment about longer lenses, my own D200 problem has led to me using a loan 70-200VR from Nikon and although a fabulous lens, it only really allows you to get what happens to be flying nearby. Much too short if you ask me and at RIAT I was 600 yds closer than anyone on the crowdside, still finding it to be an "end of nose" lens.

I will be running up the RIAT 2006 and Canberra last flight into Kemble shots over the next 48 to 72 hours, so pop in again should you wish.


Conan

[mfaff]

D70...and D70S are very good..at least I love mine..

Lenses tho...get the best ones that Nikon make.. there are several ranges..get the pro range as they are quantifiably better....

That being said what are your criteria for viewing?....if its just on screen viewing then that may not be too bad.. but large prints..say anything larger than A3 will benefit from the better ones...I have the old pre digital ones which where in the £350 brakcket 9 years ago...and images taken with these can be taken to A0 print size easily....

[REF]

The majority of pictures will be on screen but I do print alot of them as well.

I was told today that with the lenses I need new ones as they have some sort of chip in them which works with the camera.

Conan - thanks for the advice, I'll wait before buying one to see what happens with the D70/s camera prices.

[Conan the Librarian]

Not strictly true about the lenses. Let me know exactly which ones you have in mind and I can check on compatibility. Some of the old Nikon glass is wonderful, but might only support for instance, manual focus - which for airshows especially, is no problem.

Conan

[mfaff]

REF,

The lenses I have were for an Fseries..all work perfectly with the D70.
Auto focus is fine and dandy...not problems..but as I said before they are from their top range...and I would imagine that Nikon made sure the D worked with that range...at least for this generation..

[Conan the Librarian]

Both the D and G lens series have full compatibility with the current Nikon DSLR range and there are some bargains out there in the older lens market, but I would advise that if you get them, that they are from a reputable dealer, so that any problems can be sorted out. There is a chart available from Nikon to show compatibility, but I am a bit busy doing the Sailor's Hornpipe on my desk at present. Why?

Todays good (unbelievable!) news is that I have just had a phone call telling me that my Nikon 18-200VR lens is in stock. I pick it up this afternoon and am looking forward to this one. If you are reading this Mark, I will report back when I have done a few shots with it. It has been a long wait...


Conan

Edit with late news: The Nikon D80 is out of the bag. Brief synopsis here - http://www.dpreview.com/articles/nikond80/

[Conan the Librarian]

See from your Woodchurch thread, some very nice pics. It seems that you are a prop man, so that opens up another can of worms, but read on - it gets better.
For those not familiar with DSLRs the majority feature a rather convenient plus called the crop factor. Because the sensor is smaller, the image is projected onto this smaller surface and gives the appearance of greater magnification. In fact, it is just the reduced field of view - so your lens get instantly pumped by around 1.5/1.6 times on Nikon and most Canon: by 2 times on the Olympus and other "Four thirds" cameras and by bugger all on the full frame, but wonderful (sensor is the same size as film) Canon EOS 5D.
So. where is this leading? To ensure that you don't get visible camera shake and wobbly pictures with a film SLR, you aim as a rule of thumb to use a minimum shutter speed, the same as the focal length you are using. If you were to shoot at 200mm Zoom, then you would aim for a min shutter of 1/200th of a second. With the above "Crop Factor" of most DSLRs, you need to multiply this by 1.5 for Nikon and Canon, 2.0 for the Olympus, etc. etc. So for the Nikon, you would get 300mm out of a 200 zoom, but your min shutter speed would be in the case of a D70 say, 1/300th of a second. There is a catch. If you are using a long zoom, it follows that you need a fairly high shutter speed. If you do this, you will get a great picture of the aircraft, but with a frozen prop.
I reckon that the max shutter speed to get a half way decent prop disk, is 1/250th of a second, so for anyone keen on props, this does begin to pose a problem. The answer lies in adaptive optics, Vibration Reduction or Image stabilisation. What this does, is to sense camera shake, vibration, etc and add an opposite phase to one of the optical elements and Voila! you can take at lower shutter speeds. This technology is usully applied at the lens in DSLRs though the new Sony Alpha, has it built into the body, which means that you don't have to buy it for each lens. (Not used the camera, so a few reviews might be in order.) For an airshow lens with VR or IS the Sigma 80-400VR comes into mind. (Around £850) So does the Nikon 80-400VR. (Tad over a grand) Canon have many IS lenses in their own range, but I am not familiar with them, though prices again, are not cheap..
Beneath is a picture taken at RIAT of the Spitfire PR19 and it was (mistakenly) taken at a ridiculously low shutter speed for me, of 1/125th of a second, at F11 and with 200mm of zoom. (Nikon 70-200VR F2.8) Normally, with the D200 I wouldn't have dreamed of going beneath 1/450th to 1/500th let alone 1/300th - but look at the propdisk.
There we have it. Conan's top tip for helicopter displays, is to forget it unless you have a VR lens, or are right on top of it.
Conan

[jumpseater]

I use Canon, with Canon lenses or Sigma. You need to have a clear idea what your buget is, and then tailor your purchase to meet that. Don't forget second hand items can save you a lot of money and get you higher spec equipment for less money. I started with a Canon10D, which was an excellent camera to learn with, and was bought through ebay, at a significant saving. I was already Canon equiped anyway. If you're starting out get to handle the cameras we suggest at a shop. You may find one brand intuitively fits, as you handle it. I know a good selection of people who shoot primarily aircraft, and the bias is towards Canon equipment. Many use the 300/350/20D variants and frequently with the Canon 100-400 IS/USM. You'd need as a fag packet calc around £1500-£1800 beer tokens for new items. I would reccomend a second hand 20D, (with respect disregard HD's comments, they are not a current item, but they are in no conceivable way obselete). They are a very robust and good quality body, easy to learn, (two colleagues without any photo experience bought them, and got their heads round them very quickly). They are frequently used as back up camera's by pro's. 2nd hand you can get them for £5-600 from a shop, well worth a look. The 5D is superb for studio/landscape work but will be compromised for sport or action work due to its relatively low fps, as will any camera with about 3fps. That was one reason for changing for me. You will also lose on the 'benefit' of the crop factor which CtL mentions.
Your lens is another budget item to consider carefully. The better the quality optics the higher the price. The Canon 100-400 IS/USM can be had for around £1200 or £100.00 per month on interest free credit over one year. Beware the tie ins on 0% credit for the first year deals, on any gear though. Once you pass month twelve... so pay it off in a year or get a bank loan!
IS/VR is not essential by any means. There is some assistance but good technique is an area frequently overlooked, and I'd dissagree with CtL's comments re speeds. None of my lenses are currently IS, and I've done sports, soccer, under floodlights too. So that may be another way to get a good quality optic, by not having IS/VR. You will however need to practise as well as having a degree of natural ability. Whichever brand you go for the Sigma 70-200 f2.8 EXHSM is worth looking at. You can increase the focal length with a 1.4 or 2x converter. That will have a loss of perfomance of the lens, but if you don't do much low light work, that will not be too much of an issue.
eg 1/15th sec hand held f2.8 400asa Canon 10D

1/125th hand held f14 200asa Canon 1DmkII

Search any of my image thread on here, they're all taken with Canon 10D/1DmkII and Canon and Sigma lens'

[REF]

I don't really have a budget but if I was hoping not to spend more than £600 if poss, if it needs to be more then so be it.

Thanks for all the advice so far, bit confusing for an amateur like me as I'm not really up on all the terms thats why I wanted something that is easy to use!

Rick

[Conan the Librarian]

Ref,

you already produce a high standard of picture with whatever you are using. Let us know what that is please. Thing is that you can spend a bucket full of cash and get no better results. £600 will get you (almost) a new Nikon D80, should you want one - but you need a lens to bolt onto it and if you are after quality, then it does matter. Most of these cameras have specific modes built in to them and you can forget all of the above technospeak if you need to. In essence, you will get to know a new camera and soon start to associate certain settings with specific effects and it then becomes a natural and fun process. All of the camera "snobs" will have you believe that unless you are as smart, or experienced as they are, then you don't have a hope and this just is not true. Look back at your own photographs and ask if the investment is going to give you a quantative, or qualitative improvement over what you already achieve. If the answer is yes, then get ready to splash some cash - it will be worth it - and if you are ever in the BZN- Fairford area, then you are welcome to play with my own collection of odds and sods for a few hours, to see whether you feel better about your hunt for that elusive shot. You would be most welcome.

Conan

[treadigraph]

Conan - what he said! REF, your pics are great. I hope to move up to a DSLR later this year, and I hope that I can match the quality produced by so many people on this forum. Chiz, and thanks for the expert guidance provided here!