WHAT, WHERE and WHEN
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wings
This adoption of different chunks of aeroplanes is quite interesting - just like I used to do with my Keil Kraft models.........attach the most serviceable wings onto the best fuselage, fish around in the box for some wheels that fitted, hang an engine on the front and let's see what happens ! I never thought that's what Bristol and Vickers and Glosters and Handley-Page and De-Havilland and Avro and.................I've even forgotten some of the names now.
Didn't the Vickers Attacker have a Spiteful wing and tail assembly ?
Didn't the Vickers Attacker have a Spiteful wing and tail assembly ?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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How about another pic? (but carry on the discussion!).
What and where should be easy - when is more difficult, though I reckon I know roughly...
What and where should be easy - when is more difficult, though I reckon I know roughly...
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Originally Posted by JW411
As you say, the quality of the photograph is not good. I can only see three aircraft and from the left I think we have:
Grumman SA-16 Albatross, Douglas SC-54 and then the same C-124 as was shown on the original photograph.
The SA-16 and the SC-54 are probably from the resident 67th Air Rescue Squadron.
I need to get out!
Grumman SA-16 Albatross, Douglas SC-54 and then the same C-124 as was shown on the original photograph.
The SA-16 and the SC-54 are probably from the resident 67th Air Rescue Squadron.
I need to get out!
Reference to these visiting Prestwick can be seen in the following extract.
From an article "Guarding the Cold War Ramparts. The U.S. Navy’s Role in Continental Air Defense by Captain Joseph F. Bouchard, U.S. Navy.
"After the GIUK Barrier replaced the Atlantic Barrier, WV-2s would deploy to Keflavik for two weeks, typically logging about a hundred flight hours each during seven or eight arduous barrier patrols. They returned to Argentia
for four weeks of aircraft maintenance, crew rest, and training. The weather in Keflavik was no better than in Argentia, but the pilots were well trained in foul-weather operations and rarely missed a mission for that reason. When conditions at Keflavik fell below minimums, the Willie Victors normally diverted to Prestwick, Scotland."
Mel
MReyn 24050:
Well, I can see a dark blob on my computer to the right of the C-124 but I can't even recognise it as an aircraft so I really cannot comment.
As you say, WV-2s were common visitors to Prestwick.
Do you know what a WV-1 was? In fact, there were only two of them built and both of them used to visit Prestwick (originally as PO-1Ws and then as WV-1s when they were re-designated).
We used to call them "giraffe freighters" (you could just about imagine the giraffe having his feet in the lower radome and his head in the upper)!
Well, I can see a dark blob on my computer to the right of the C-124 but I can't even recognise it as an aircraft so I really cannot comment.
As you say, WV-2s were common visitors to Prestwick.
Do you know what a WV-1 was? In fact, there were only two of them built and both of them used to visit Prestwick (originally as PO-1Ws and then as WV-1s when they were re-designated).
We used to call them "giraffe freighters" (you could just about imagine the giraffe having his feet in the lower radome and his head in the upper)!
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Originally Posted by virgo
Didn't the Vickers Attacker have a Spiteful wing and tail assembly ?
Mel
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[QUOTE=treadigraph]How about another pic? (but carry on the discussion!).
What and where should be easy - when is more difficult, though I reckon I know roughly...
RAF Shawbury? The taxi grid looks similar to that near Matthew's Coppice Quite a few aircraft there. Victors, Vulcans, Argosy, Brittania, Shackleton (less enines) and many smaller aircraft. When? Between 1982 and 1984 perhaps.
What and where should be easy - when is more difficult, though I reckon I know roughly...
RAF Shawbury? The taxi grid looks similar to that near Matthew's Coppice Quite a few aircraft there. Victors, Vulcans, Argosy, Brittania, Shackleton (less enines) and many smaller aircraft. When? Between 1982 and 1984 perhaps.
Last edited by MReyn24050; 8th Jul 2006 at 17:24.
treadigraph:
Well your one is quite definitely the Fire School at RAF Manston. I can see 1 Britannia, 1 Argosy, 3 Victors, 2 Vulcans, 1 Shackleton, 1 Viscount, 4 Helicopters (1 Wessex, 3 Whirlwinds?), 1 Vampire, 1 Meteor (with tail broken off), 1 Hunter, 2 aircaft on the right (one with a wing off) which look like they could be Devons or Herons and what I think is the remains of a JP just off the fire training area.
I think the Argosy might be XN855 which went to Manston on 3.8.77 so I would guess that the photograph was taken around 1980.
Well your one is quite definitely the Fire School at RAF Manston. I can see 1 Britannia, 1 Argosy, 3 Victors, 2 Vulcans, 1 Shackleton, 1 Viscount, 4 Helicopters (1 Wessex, 3 Whirlwinds?), 1 Vampire, 1 Meteor (with tail broken off), 1 Hunter, 2 aircaft on the right (one with a wing off) which look like they could be Devons or Herons and what I think is the remains of a JP just off the fire training area.
I think the Argosy might be XN855 which went to Manston on 3.8.77 so I would guess that the photograph was taken around 1980.
I've got interested in this one so I have done some more research. The Viscount is ex-Alidair G-BDRC and that didn't get to Manston until 05/86. Wrecks and Relics No.11 tells us that it is upside down by 11/87 which it isn't on the photograph.
I think the Shackleton is WL741 which is reported as perished by Late/87.
I think the three Victors are XH590, XH616 and XL511. XL511 arrived on 2/7/86.
I therefore revise my estimate as to when the photograph was taken to between 07/86 and 11/87. The corn stubble in the field suggests autumn but it could be either one.
By the way, I think the two Vulcans are XL386 and XM657.
I think the Shackleton is WL741 which is reported as perished by Late/87.
I think the three Victors are XH590, XH616 and XL511. XL511 arrived on 2/7/86.
I therefore revise my estimate as to when the photograph was taken to between 07/86 and 11/87. The corn stubble in the field suggests autumn but it could be either one.
By the way, I think the two Vulcans are XL386 and XM657.
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JW411
Great information and congrats on your research.
Just for information sake. From http://users.bigpond.net.au/Shackleton/marktwo.html it is also known that Shackleton WL739 MR2 was originally allotted to Catterick but the allotment was cancelled and the aircraft delivered to Manston for Fire Fighting training. How long it lasted is anyones guess.
WL741 also a MR2 was withdrawn from use early 1981 and allocated to the Central Training Establishment, Manston. Flown to Manston 29.5.81 and allotted maintenance serial 8692M. Stripped of engines and other equipment during June.81 and then quickly cremated. As you say possibly at the Fire school.
If your date of the photograph is correct then it is possibly WL739.
Mel
Great information and congrats on your research.
Originally Posted by JW411
I think the Shackleton is WL741 which is reported as perished by Late/87.
WL741 also a MR2 was withdrawn from use early 1981 and allocated to the Central Training Establishment, Manston. Flown to Manston 29.5.81 and allotted maintenance serial 8692M. Stripped of engines and other equipment during June.81 and then quickly cremated. As you say possibly at the Fire school.
If your date of the photograph is correct then it is possibly WL739.
Mel
The trouble is that I do not have Wrecks & Relics 7, 8, 9, and 10 so I have no information on WL739.
Air-Britain have it as "SOC 17.11.71; to Manston for fire practice". If it got there at the end of 1971 it is rather unlikely that it would still be there in 1986/1987.
Air-Britain have it as "SOC 17.11.71; to Manston for fire practice". If it got there at the end of 1971 it is rather unlikely that it would still be there in 1986/1987.
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Originally Posted by JW411
The trouble is that I do not have Wrecks & Relics 7, 8, 9, and 10 so I have no information on WL739.
Air-Britain have it as "SOC 17.11.71; to Manston for fire practice". If it got there at the end of 1971 it is rather unlikely that it would still be there in 1986/1987.
Air-Britain have it as "SOC 17.11.71; to Manston for fire practice". If it got there at the end of 1971 it is rather unlikely that it would still be there in 1986/1987.
Mel
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Fishtailed
Well that photograph at least confirms, I think, that the aircraft to the left of the C-124 are in fact an Albatross and C-54D. Not sure about the newcomer to the right of the C-124 but I think it is a Twin Pioneer and it also confirms my thoughts regarding the extreme aircraft being a WV-2.
Mel
Well that photograph at least confirms, I think, that the aircraft to the left of the C-124 are in fact an Albatross and C-54D. Not sure about the newcomer to the right of the C-124 but I think it is a Twin Pioneer and it also confirms my thoughts regarding the extreme aircraft being a WV-2.
Mel
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Originally Posted by Kieron Kirk
W&R 5 reports that WL739 had expired by 3/75.
Kieron.
Kieron.
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WL741 was an AEW.2(take your pick from "C" or "phase 3") if that helps-similar colours to an MR variety?
Incidentaly WL739 was a T.2 !
Kieron.
No comments on the identity of the Britannia yet, that might get us a bit nearer to the date of the photo.
I am about to raid my collection of W&R (yes I have1-19, just do not ask how much I paid for a reprint of W&R 1 !
Incidentaly WL739 was a T.2 !
Kieron.
No comments on the identity of the Britannia yet, that might get us a bit nearer to the date of the photo.
I am about to raid my collection of W&R (yes I have1-19, just do not ask how much I paid for a reprint of W&R 1 !
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W&R10 reveals the Britannia to be G-ANCF, placed in the fire pit area sometime in 1984, but taken to the civvy(ugh-sorry while I clear my throat) side by 6/85. It later went to Brooklands in 1988.
Kieron.
W&R is a bit vague as to the arrival date of Viscount G-BDRC, "arr. by 11/84".
Photo date, mid 84 to mid 85.
Kieron.
W&R is a bit vague as to the arrival date of Viscount G-BDRC, "arr. by 11/84".
Photo date, mid 84 to mid 85.
This is getting more curious by the minute. Air-Britain BCAR quotes Viscount G-BDRC as being WFU at Exeter 09.10.84 and then to the Fire School at Manston 05/86. Now that can't be true if Britannia G-ANCD returned to the civil side by 06/85 for they are both quite clearly in the photograph together.
So if Air-Britain are wrong and W&W 10 is right and G-BDRC arrived by 11/84 then the photograph has to be between 11/84 and 06/85.
That seems to be pretty conclusive until we get back to the corn field!
Now I am no farmer but is June not a bit early to have a corn field in stubble?
So if Air-Britain are wrong and W&W 10 is right and G-BDRC arrived by 11/84 then the photograph has to be between 11/84 and 06/85.
That seems to be pretty conclusive until we get back to the corn field!
Now I am no farmer but is June not a bit early to have a corn field in stubble?
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Grafted wings
Calculations in the Manchester Design Record were drawn upon for Lanc, York, Lincoln, Tudor, Ashton, Canada Jetliner, Shack, Argosy. Airfoils and load paths diverged as planforms and dimensions varied.
This wing must have conveyed more power eggs than any other, counting the Test Beds. Was Shack MR.3 Phase 3 UK's sole 6-engined type? (boost Vipers. Saro Princess had 10 engines in 6 nacelles).
FG Miles' grafted wings were H.D.M.105, to SC.7 Skyvan, and FFA P-16, which he helped put on Learjet. Avro paid royalties pre-war for Anson's wing, derived from Fokker F.VII; all (Taylorcraft/UK) Austers to 1946 paid royalty to Taylorcraft/US. Were these the same wing? Was My Sweet Lord, He's So Fine?
This wing must have conveyed more power eggs than any other, counting the Test Beds. Was Shack MR.3 Phase 3 UK's sole 6-engined type? (boost Vipers. Saro Princess had 10 engines in 6 nacelles).
FG Miles' grafted wings were H.D.M.105, to SC.7 Skyvan, and FFA P-16, which he helped put on Learjet. Avro paid royalties pre-war for Anson's wing, derived from Fokker F.VII; all (Taylorcraft/UK) Austers to 1946 paid royalty to Taylorcraft/US. Were these the same wing? Was My Sweet Lord, He's So Fine?