Wreckage in Bristol Channel

[Agaricus bisporus]

In the mid '80s I regularly flew in the Bristol area and frequently saw a large propellor blade sticking out of a big sandbank in mid-channel roughly between Portishead (or a mile or so upstream) and the Welsh shore to the North. We once came to a hover close by, it was a big square-ended paddle blade similar shape to that on a Herc/Convair or some of the later RAF piston transports and was clealy still attached to an engine.

Long shot I know, anyone able to shed light?

[shack]

Could it be from the Britannia that plopped in to the Channel with a burning donc way back in the 50s?

[matspart3]

Shack
You mean this one....

http://www.transportarchive.org.uk/g...php?rnum=G2170

Not the same place that A b suggests though

[Conan the Librarian]

A good try Shack, but sadly the Brit Props are quite slender and with rounded tips. Some of the more cerebral inhabitants of the "What Cockpit" thread may come to the rescue here.


Conan

[stalling attitude]

i'm not sure if it is the same one but last year on the local news they ran an item on a local helicopter pilot who spotted a prop blade at low tide in that sort of area. They said that it was thought to be from a mosquito that went in just after the war i think. If so then there won't be much left of the aircraft but there could be a corroding merlin down there.

[JamesA]

Britannia props

Conan,
The 102 series Brits had square tip props. The one put down in the Bristol Channel would have been from this series if memory serves correctly.

[Conan the Librarian]

I stand corrected! Thought they were all rounded tip, like the RAF examples. As an aside, what is it (apart from clearances) that governs whether a tip is rounded or square?

Apols shack

Conan

[shack]

Merci Conan

[MReyn24050]

Originally Posted by JamesA

Conan,
The 102 series Brits had square tip props. The one put down in the Bristol Channel would have been from this series if memory serves correctly.

As matspart's link shows.
The aircraft concerned was the second prototype G-ALRX Bristol 175 Britannia Series 101. which crashed on the 4th Feb 1954
[IMG][/IMG]
G-ALRX from the air. Note the tracks where the Britannia slid along the mud, before veering to the right into the Estuary. There are five tracks - one for the fuselage, and one for each engine.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Did the crew get out OK?

SSD

[MReyn24050]

Originally Posted by Shaggy Sheep Driver

Did the crew get out OK?
SSD

Yes there were 7 crew and 6 passengers on board.
Extract from Britannia Aircraft Preservation Trust Web site:-
"On the morning of 4th February 1954, G-ALRX took of from Filton on a test flight, with Captain A.J. 'Bill' Pegg at the controls. Flight Engineers for the trip were Ken Fitzgerald and Gareth Jones. On board were Dr. Archibald E. Russell, Chief Designer of Bristol Aircraft Division; Dr. Stanley G Hooker, Chief Engineer of the Bristol Engine Division; and Mr Farnes, the Bristol Sales Manager. This was not just a test flight; also present were two representatives of the Dutch airline KLM, a potential Britannia customer. G. Malouin of KLM was co-pilot for the flight. Thirteen people were on board all together. The take-off was uneventful, but seven minutes into the flight the engine temperature on engine no. 3 rose, so it was shut down. Once it had cooled sufficiently, it was restarted, and the flight continued its journey northwards to Herefordshire.
The engine temperature rose again when climbing through 10,000 feet, then suddenly the engine exploded. Shrapnel missed the fuselage, but pierced the engine oil tank, which burst into flames. The fire was so intense it could not be extinguished. While Bill Pegg turned the aircraft south for an emergency landing at back at Filton, engine No.4 was shut down, as a precaution. To add to the drama, engines no. 1 and 2 shut themselves down, turning the Britannia into a large glider. It was only the speedy work of the two engineers, Fitzgerald and Jones, that got the two port engines relit, and disaster was averted.
With flames engulfing the starboard wing, threatening to penetrate the fuel tanks, and Filton still several miles away, Pegg elected to put down on the Severn Mudflats, the slit and mud of the Severn Estuary exposed when the tide is out. With the flaps and wheels up, and only the two port engines running, the Britannia was expertly belly landed on the flats near Littleton-on-Severn, not far from the eastern end of the first Severn bridge, which was built the following decade. The aircraft slidded for 400 yards, sending plumes of mud in the air. It ended up facing out from the shore, with one engine ripped from the nacelle, but with little damage elsewhere. Miraculously, the mud managed to put out the flames, which could have ripped through the fuel tanks at any moment. Relieved and shaken the crew and passengers jumped from the aircraft."

[Conan the Librarian]

I was followed into a car park at Kemble two, possibly three years ago by an elderly gentleman in a small car. Thought he looked familiar. Turned out to be Bill Pegg, the captain of the Sand Buggy! Wonderful chap and a superb character too.

Conan

[Newforest]

Great photos showing a superb attempt to save the plane, also a great example of the ubiquitous duffle coat. Curious why the plane would turn to the right?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Originally Posted by Newforest

Curious why the plane would turn to the right?

Downhill, once the rudder became ineffective to hold them straight as the speed decayed?

SSD

[jabberwok]

Relieved and shaken the crew and passengers jumped from the aircraft.

...into several feet of sticky and foul smelling mud. It wasn't easy for them to plough their way through it to firmer ground.

Can't recall where I read this - maybe in BP's autobiography.

[Bof]

Brittania crash

Can anybody help. I am struggling with the old grey matter. However, a very good friend of mine was employed by Bristols as a photographer. Around 54'ish he was killed in a Britannia crash near Bristol(?) supposedly he was on board to photograph wooltufts on part of the airframe on an airtest.

Clearly my mind is a bit muddled after 52 years. Was there another Brit crash in the area during the test period which incurred fatalities?

[MReyn24050]

Originally Posted by Bof

Can anybody help. I am struggling with the old grey matter. However, a very good friend of mine was employed by Bristols as a photographer. Around 54'ish he was killed in a Britannia crash near Bristol(?) supposedly he was on board to photograph wooltufts on part of the airframe on an airtest.
Clearly my mind is a bit muddled after 52 years. Was there another Brit crash in the area during the test period which incurred fatalities?

Yes, sadly, Bristol 175 Britannia G-ANCA was lost on the 6th November 1957 with 15 men on board. The aircraft had just completed a test flight of 1 hour and 40 minutes. Tests included a strain-gauge measurements on the non-standard propeller of the no. 2 engine, and high speed upset manoeuvre recovery tests in connection with the US certification. Returning to Filton, the aircraft entered a circuit and partial gear extensions occurred for unknown reasons. Attempts may have been made to complete undercarriage free fall tests as these had failed the previous day; such test were not on the programme however. At 1500 feet a left turn to base leg was initiated. The right wing suddenly dropped and the aircraft went into a very steeply banked right hand turn. The Britannia briefly recovered but banked steeply again and struck the ground in a wood near Downend Village.
The names of the 15 men who lost their lives that day were :
John Kenneth Barker
John Edward Burton
Donald Charles Cameron
Albert Edward Ebling
Philip Norman Edward Hewitt
Donald Matthew Hunter
Kenneth Graham Lucas
Dudley Neville Stephen Moynihan
Frederick William Mycroft
John Harold Parry-Jones
Ernest Hugh Statham
Nigel Morris Thorne
William James Todd
Bernard Francis Waite
Frederick Charles Walsh

[Bof]

Britannia loss

Many thanks MReyn. Nigel Thorne and I had been great school friends and it was a great loss at the time. As so many others have observed, Pprune is a fantastic source of aeronautic history and information. Whatever your question, someone out there has the answer.

[JamesA]

Brir props again and others

Conan,
Since my remark re square tips, a friend has told me he has seen a photo, if remembered correctly it is a Britannia Airways machine which appears to have a square tipped prop on the outer engine and a round tip on the inner.
Could any of the Aerosexuals out there verify this.

As to the question you raised re tip shape - I can only suggest it is a designer's attempt at efficiency. Some years ago I saw a Cessna or Piper twin with the tips turned back. A man told me they were called 'Q' tips. I am not in private flying so don't know if they caught on, but believe several other tip designs have been tried. I also recall square and rounded tips on Dart engines, don't know which variant used which or if they are interchangeable. Over to the prop experts.

[MReyn24050]

Originally Posted by JamesA

Conan,
Since my remark re square tips, a friend has told me he has seen a photo, if remembered correctly it is a Britannia Airways machine which appears to have a square tipped prop on the outer engine and a round tip on the inner.
Could any of the Aerosexuals out there verify this.

This is a photograph of a Britannia Airways Bristol 175 Britannia Series 102 G-ANBA at Dusseldorf in 1962 which proves your friend's memory serves him well.
[IMG][/IMG]