V2 tipping
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V2 tipping
Scene: Stuck on a boat in the furious 50's watching "the Secret War". As the chairs slid from side to side, the scene and interview of WWII fighters "tipping" German V2 rockets was digested and debated.
Between the fliers amongst us was disagreement as to how they did it and how it worked. Did they:
1. Go under the V2 wing with their own wingtip and contact the wing of the ricket and using ailerons physically push it upwards
2. Place their wingtip slightly behind the trailing edge of the V2 wing to reduce the drag (a la ground effect) making the V2 yaw then roll away
3. Hold thier wing tip underneath (though one would have thought the resultant veturi would have sucked the V2 wing downwards, thereby turning it towards the "tipper" creating a highly awkward, but certainly memorable moment.
4. Some other theory?
CS
Between the fliers amongst us was disagreement as to how they did it and how it worked. Did they:
1. Go under the V2 wing with their own wingtip and contact the wing of the ricket and using ailerons physically push it upwards
2. Place their wingtip slightly behind the trailing edge of the V2 wing to reduce the drag (a la ground effect) making the V2 yaw then roll away
3. Hold thier wing tip underneath (though one would have thought the resultant veturi would have sucked the V2 wing downwards, thereby turning it towards the "tipper" creating a highly awkward, but certainly memorable moment.
4. Some other theory?
CS
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I saw the same programme I think, but it was V-1's not V-2's. V-1's were pilotless aircraft (UAV these days I guess, and the forerunner of the cruise missile) which some aircraft could just about manage to match for speed, just. The V-2 on the other hand was the forerunner of the ICBM. I am not sure what altitude it was launched to, but it went up a long way and came down nearly vertical following a highly parabolic path.
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V1s and I thought it was yer actual physical contact, I believe they'd use a wingtip to flick the V1 over and upset the gyros sufficiently for the thing to go out of control... Griffon Spits and Tempests were used. There's a good painting of one or tother in hot pursuit of the little beggars...
Ah, memory stirring! Might have read about it in Bee Beamont's autobiography which I borrowed from somebody several years ago? Anybody got a copy?
Ah, memory stirring! Might have read about it in Bee Beamont's autobiography which I borrowed from somebody several years ago? Anybody got a copy?
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I seem to recall that they prefered no physical contact, that it wasn't needed, relied on aerodynamic effect. Then the V1 would roll beyond the directional gyro's capability to hold straight.
As for the actual aerodynamics? Is JF there? He's better at the subject than most of us.
Seem to recall a comment that gun laying radar was being developed to even having a go at the V2s. Guess that would have just meant saturating the flight path with shells hoping one would destroy it.
As for the actual aerodynamics? Is JF there? He's better at the subject than most of us.
Seem to recall a comment that gun laying radar was being developed to even having a go at the V2s. Guess that would have just meant saturating the flight path with shells hoping one would destroy it.
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Bea Beamont said the first destabilisation method used was to fly infront of the V1 at close range and use the slipstream to topple its gyros, which had a lateral auuthority of only +- 20 degrees.
This was difficult because the pilot lost sight of the target, so the wing tipping method was developed.
The Tempest's wingtip was edged under that of the V1 and then gently raised so that, without any contact, the boundary layer airflow lifted the target's wing and toppled it's gyros.
Mossies were used at night but, being slower than the Tempest, had to dive quite steeply onto the target to achieve the necessary overtaking speed.
Damn noisy things Doodlebugs, once heard never forgotten.
This was difficult because the pilot lost sight of the target, so the wing tipping method was developed.
The Tempest's wingtip was edged under that of the V1 and then gently raised so that, without any contact, the boundary layer airflow lifted the target's wing and toppled it's gyros.
Mossies were used at night but, being slower than the Tempest, had to dive quite steeply onto the target to achieve the necessary overtaking speed.
Damn noisy things Doodlebugs, once heard never forgotten.
Gentleman Aviator
Surprised to hear that attempts were made to shoot down V2 s. Parents lived in London during WW2 and said the first V2s were thought to be gas main explosions, as there was absolutely no warning - but maybe that was just propaganda.
And of course, the V2 provided the basic design for the SCUD which takes a bit more than 40s technology to shoot down...
And of course, the V2 provided the basic design for the SCUD which takes a bit more than 40s technology to shoot down...
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Shooting down V2s:
I only included this for I had heard it from an ex-Ack Ack gunner. Now it may be that they were hoping to use radar to pick up the V2 far enough out to at least have a go at buckshotting the area of fall. No idea how effective it might have been. Had the war and use of V2s gone on longer I'm sure some effort would have been made to at least have a go at them, besides bombing the elusive launch sites.
It was only commented to me the once, so I included it to see if anyone else had heard anymore, especially as the original poster had confused the V1 and V2.
I only included this for I had heard it from an ex-Ack Ack gunner. Now it may be that they were hoping to use radar to pick up the V2 far enough out to at least have a go at buckshotting the area of fall. No idea how effective it might have been. Had the war and use of V2s gone on longer I'm sure some effort would have been made to at least have a go at them, besides bombing the elusive launch sites.
It was only commented to me the once, so I included it to see if anyone else had heard anymore, especially as the original poster had confused the V1 and V2.
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V2s were actually nicknamed 'Flying gas main's by the public from what I can remember from a bit of research years ago. This was due to the government covering up what was happening at the start by referring to the explosions as gas mains going up.
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Proximity fuses based on a minaturised radar set in the AA shell were allegedly (Most Secret War, R Jones) the reason for a huge improvement in the rate of V1 shoot-downs.
I never heard of attempts to shoot down V2's. Sounds unlikely. Plus all the London AA had been moved to the coast to pot V1's in 1944. The V2's would still have been at very high altitude crossing the coast and would have been way out of range.
Probably some scientists did the maths about V2's and said forget it
PS I really hate that bit of gun-camera film where the pilot is banging away at a V1 & it explodes
There was absolutely nothing he could do but fly through the fireball and hope there were no hard bits inside. No wonder they tried tipping them over instead!
I never heard of attempts to shoot down V2's. Sounds unlikely. Plus all the London AA had been moved to the coast to pot V1's in 1944. The V2's would still have been at very high altitude crossing the coast and would have been way out of range.
Probably some scientists did the maths about V2's and said forget it
PS I really hate that bit of gun-camera film where the pilot is banging away at a V1 & it explodes
There was absolutely nothing he could do but fly through the fireball and hope there were no hard bits inside. No wonder they tried tipping them over instead!
Hello all
I think Sedbergh has it. The proximity fuse did for the V1, in the same way as it did for the Kamikaze in the Pacific War. The allies were reluctant to allow it to be used in Europe in case the Germans captured rounds and figured out how to make their own.Only when the German assault in the Ardennes began to relly hurt, did they release the proximity fuse to the artillery. The German infantry hated the allied artillery with a passion and blamed the Allies for using Heat-seeking shells, that always burst overhead. Often ,the proximity fuse was all that prevented Allied troops from being overwhelmed and only the heaviest german tanks could withstand a prox. fuse barrage.I can't rememeber the name of the book from which I took all this but I think it was named "the secret fuse" or suchlike.
regards
TDD
I think Sedbergh has it. The proximity fuse did for the V1, in the same way as it did for the Kamikaze in the Pacific War. The allies were reluctant to allow it to be used in Europe in case the Germans captured rounds and figured out how to make their own.Only when the German assault in the Ardennes began to relly hurt, did they release the proximity fuse to the artillery. The German infantry hated the allied artillery with a passion and blamed the Allies for using Heat-seeking shells, that always burst overhead. Often ,the proximity fuse was all that prevented Allied troops from being overwhelmed and only the heaviest german tanks could withstand a prox. fuse barrage.I can't rememeber the name of the book from which I took all this but I think it was named "the secret fuse" or suchlike.
regards
TDD
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Barge et al
I didn't say they had shot at V2s, only that they were trying to develop things so they could have a go, however optomistic the idea might have been. Also, the guns had been moved to the coastal area for the V1s, they could always move them again!
Interesting to learn about the proximity fuze. Ppruners can invariably come up with interesting information from their stores of knowledge. Cheers!
I didn't say they had shot at V2s, only that they were trying to develop things so they could have a go, however optomistic the idea might have been. Also, the guns had been moved to the coastal area for the V1s, they could always move them again!
Interesting to learn about the proximity fuze. Ppruners can invariably come up with interesting information from their stores of knowledge. Cheers!
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I remember Raymond Baxter years ago recounting how he and his wingman were flying Spitfires near a V2 launch site when one these montsters rose up majestically in front of them, climbimng vertically just after launch. His wingman took a pot shot at it - but luckily for them, he missed!
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Sedburgh:
I`m sure I read years ago, the account of a radar operator in a mosquito which intercepted a V1 at night. He was somewhat superfluous, as they just had to follow the flames from the pulse jet. When the pilot opened fire, they had no time to avoid the resultant fireball and only just managed to land safely, having sustained a severe scorching!
Of all the V1s engaged by aircraft, I believe it was the Tempest MkV which scored highest.
Two Dead Dogs (interesting handle):
I read a book about the proximity fuse it was , I think, called "The Deadly Fuze" (note american spelling).....don`t remember the author, but was fascinating.
I`m sure I read years ago, the account of a radar operator in a mosquito which intercepted a V1 at night. He was somewhat superfluous, as they just had to follow the flames from the pulse jet. When the pilot opened fire, they had no time to avoid the resultant fireball and only just managed to land safely, having sustained a severe scorching!
Of all the V1s engaged by aircraft, I believe it was the Tempest MkV which scored highest.
Two Dead Dogs (interesting handle):
I read a book about the proximity fuse it was , I think, called "The Deadly Fuze" (note american spelling).....don`t remember the author, but was fascinating.
Seem to recall a comment that gun laying radar was being developed to even having a go at the V2s. Guess that would have just meant saturating the flight path with shells hoping one would destroy it.
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An elderly ex-RAF chap I met at Duxford said that part of the reason for developing the aerodynamic wing-tipping method for downing the V1s was the danger of the physical method triggering the explosives in the beast. Sounds plausible.
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My Dad did a bit of this in the war, he was on tempests at the time. They tried not to touch but would every now and then. Apparently the giros toppled quite easily so the contact only had to be very brief.
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Now there's a frightening combination.
A twenty year old. A Tempest. Half a ton (approx) of high explosives. All fifteen foot apart travling at 200 mph umpteen thousand feet up!!!!!! There were some very brave people back then!!!.
Rgds Dr I.
A twenty year old. A Tempest. Half a ton (approx) of high explosives. All fifteen foot apart travling at 200 mph umpteen thousand feet up!!!!!! There were some very brave people back then!!!.
Rgds Dr I.
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And you've got to make sure you don't flip it over in to Orpington High Street on market day. I thought the closing speed was nearer the 400 mph mark which is why only the Tiffie and later Spitfires were quick enough.