Depiction of BAC-111 window rupture...
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Lartington said in part..........
The Captain was 'Hazel' Hazeldene who used to be chief test pilot for Handley Page..........
Surely he died in the low level Victor prototype test over Cranfield when the overstressed tailplane departed? I worked with his daughter some years later. Maybe he had a brother. Not being picky - just trying to sort out what happened at Cranfield and who was flying the Victor.
Aviate 1138
The Captain was 'Hazel' Hazeldene who used to be chief test pilot for Handley Page..........
Surely he died in the low level Victor prototype test over Cranfield when the overstressed tailplane departed? I worked with his daughter some years later. Maybe he had a brother. Not being picky - just trying to sort out what happened at Cranfield and who was flying the Victor.
Aviate 1138
The captain was vertically challenged and had to undo his belts
in order to do the aircon changeover after takeoff.What is also
forgotten is the BA witchhunt immediately after the incident
wanting to know why the FO went to southhampton instead of a regular BA airfield.Atc were not much help to him either in the ensuing dirty dive.Beware management you pilots they will ALWAYS seek to apportion blame on you to keep their own arses clean.
in order to do the aircon changeover after takeoff.What is also
forgotten is the BA witchhunt immediately after the incident
wanting to know why the FO went to southhampton instead of a regular BA airfield.Atc were not much help to him either in the ensuing dirty dive.Beware management you pilots they will ALWAYS seek to apportion blame on you to keep their own arses clean.
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frangatang
Slightly off thread.
With regards to the latter part of your post, couldn't agree more. In fact it brings back memories of an accident at East midlands, in the late eighties.
Slightly off thread.
With regards to the latter part of your post, couldn't agree more. In fact it brings back memories of an accident at East midlands, in the late eighties.
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QUOTE
"The co-pilot had been the handling pilot duringthe take-off and, once established in the climb, the commanderwas handling the aircraft in accordance with the operator's normaloperating procedures. At this stage both pilots had released theirshoulder harness, using the release bar on the buckle, and thecommander had loosened his lap-strap."
Accident Report
AND THIS ALSO
"The crew were faced with an instantaneous and unforeseen emergency.The combined actions of the co-pilot and cabin crew successfullyaverted what could have been a major catastrophe. The fact thatall those on board the aircraft survived is a tribute to theirquick thinking and perseverance in the face of a shocking experience.
Up to the time of the loss of the windscreen, the flight had proceededuneventfully and in accordance with the company\'s normal procedures.It was quite in order for the flight crew to release their shoulderharnesses once they were established in the climb and, for reasonsof comfort, the commander loosened his lap strap as he nearedthe cruising phase of the two and a half hour flight to Malaga.Therefore, when the left windscreen was blown out, it was notsurprising that the commander, who was very lightly built, wasdrawn partially through the windscreen aperture. It is not certainwhat prevented his complete egress from the aircraft but, sincethe No 2 steward later bad to free his legs from a position betweenthe control column and the flight deck coaming, it is likely thathe had been restrained by his legs during the initial stage ofthe emergency. Later, he was restrained simply by the effortsof the No 2 steward who was holding on to both of his legs."
Accident Report
"The co-pilot had been the handling pilot duringthe take-off and, once established in the climb, the commanderwas handling the aircraft in accordance with the operator's normaloperating procedures. At this stage both pilots had released theirshoulder harness, using the release bar on the buckle, and thecommander had loosened his lap-strap."
Accident Report
AND THIS ALSO
"The crew were faced with an instantaneous and unforeseen emergency.The combined actions of the co-pilot and cabin crew successfullyaverted what could have been a major catastrophe. The fact thatall those on board the aircraft survived is a tribute to theirquick thinking and perseverance in the face of a shocking experience.
Up to the time of the loss of the windscreen, the flight had proceededuneventfully and in accordance with the company\'s normal procedures.It was quite in order for the flight crew to release their shoulderharnesses once they were established in the climb and, for reasonsof comfort, the commander loosened his lap strap as he nearedthe cruising phase of the two and a half hour flight to Malaga.Therefore, when the left windscreen was blown out, it was notsurprising that the commander, who was very lightly built, wasdrawn partially through the windscreen aperture. It is not certainwhat prevented his complete egress from the aircraft but, sincethe No 2 steward later bad to free his legs from a position betweenthe control column and the flight deck coaming, it is likely thathe had been restrained by his legs during the initial stage ofthe emergency. Later, he was restrained simply by the effortsof the No 2 steward who was holding on to both of his legs."
Accident Report
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It was quite in order for the flight crew to release their shoulderharnesses once they were established in the climb and, for reasonsof comfort, the commander loosened his lap strap
I saw the captain on TV a few months later (the crew did the rounds of the UK morning TV shows at the time), and the captain said on that programme that the only thing holding him into the aircraft, apart from the steward, was some jagged metal that he was impaled on (hence all the blood down the side of the aircraft), and his belt buckle. I may even still have it on video somewhere.
short flights long nights
what is an aircon change over?
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I was lucky enough to meet Alistair at the BA condo in New York, a year or so ago. He's a typical low key, matter of fact guy and an absolute credit to our profession.
When I was really young and stupid, to be in his shoes at that point in time was a student pilot's dream. Now that I know a little more, I hope I never have to repeat his achievement.
Bottom line is, because (hopefully) we make our job look easy, we are sometimes given less than the respect this great profession deserves.
Next time someone says you're paid too much, remind them it's not what you do on a normal day, it's what you'll do when you're in Alistair's shoes.
Cheers, DD
When I was really young and stupid, to be in his shoes at that point in time was a student pilot's dream. Now that I know a little more, I hope I never have to repeat his achievement.
Bottom line is, because (hopefully) we make our job look easy, we are sometimes given less than the respect this great profession deserves.
Next time someone says you're paid too much, remind them it's not what you do on a normal day, it's what you'll do when you're in Alistair's shoes.
Cheers, DD
Thread Starter
Dallas Dude and GANG
Another thing in the program which I forgot is how the poor guy could not breathe in the hellacious windblast. Seem to remember his comment that he turned his head towards the airplane's tail and was able to breathe again. The flights attendant(s) must have gone straight to the c@c$p!t without any delay (why does Pprune forbid the word #######? Standard terminology since 1903, or so)?
Would be impossible now without 'coordination', never mind being almost impossible to hear the crew interphone through the loudspeaker or the headset?
And why did British Airways give the FO such a hard time on selecting an airport with such a crisis onboard? If they were stricter than the CAA, then did they not value the Captain's life very highly? Did a medical emergency divert to a suitable airport only apply to a fare-paying passenger? An emergency is an emergency, is it not, even if there is no smoke or fumes inside the plane? One doesn't want to pick a very short runway to land on, but it seems to have worked out very well, with medical pesonnel available. One hell of a job, with no time to be a Monday morning quarterback (football critic), done by a staff of attorneys (solicitors/barristers...).
Another thing in the program which I forgot is how the poor guy could not breathe in the hellacious windblast. Seem to remember his comment that he turned his head towards the airplane's tail and was able to breathe again. The flights attendant(s) must have gone straight to the c@c$p!t without any delay (why does Pprune forbid the word #######? Standard terminology since 1903, or so)?
Would be impossible now without 'coordination', never mind being almost impossible to hear the crew interphone through the loudspeaker or the headset?
And why did British Airways give the FO such a hard time on selecting an airport with such a crisis onboard? If they were stricter than the CAA, then did they not value the Captain's life very highly? Did a medical emergency divert to a suitable airport only apply to a fare-paying passenger? An emergency is an emergency, is it not, even if there is no smoke or fumes inside the plane? One doesn't want to pick a very short runway to land on, but it seems to have worked out very well, with medical pesonnel available. One hell of a job, with no time to be a Monday morning quarterback (football critic), done by a staff of attorneys (solicitors/barristers...).
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frangatang
Yes. Assuming for a minute that you consider it OK for a pilot to not be able to do his job without breaking a clear rule in the ANO - you do this.
You loosen you straps to accomplish the changeover. Then you re-fasten and tighten them. Surely this is not rocket science.
If he had done that, this incident would have not have happened (the nasty bit of it, anyway).
Dear MOR,how do you change the air if you cant undo your shoulder harness. Any suggestions?
You loosen you straps to accomplish the changeover. Then you re-fasten and tighten them. Surely this is not rocket science.
If he had done that, this incident would have not have happened (the nasty bit of it, anyway).
MOR
This is beginning to sound like a Witchhunt when one isn't needed - why all the fuss about Tim Lancaster's harness?
There is nothing in the ANO that says that both crewmembers should be fully trussed up all the time - if there was longhaul would be impossible. Surely all of us (even you?), at some time in flight loosen the harness or worse still actually undo the darned things to perhaps deal to a call of nature or reach manuals etc . The important thing in this case was that the P2 was fully strapped in and able to control the Aircraft .
This is beginning to sound like a Witchhunt when one isn't needed - why all the fuss about Tim Lancaster's harness?
There is nothing in the ANO that says that both crewmembers should be fully trussed up all the time - if there was longhaul would be impossible. Surely all of us (even you?), at some time in flight loosen the harness or worse still actually undo the darned things to perhaps deal to a call of nature or reach manuals etc . The important thing in this case was that the P2 was fully strapped in and able to control the Aircraft .
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It isn't a witch-hunt.
The ANO clearly states that each pilot must be "secured in their seat" (look it up if you don't believe me). I suppose whether that means "trussed up" is a matter of interpretation.
What is the point in having straps if you don't use them? Sure, I remove my shoulder harnesses on longer sectors, might even slack off the lap strap a bit. However, having had a few CAT encounters in my time, I never loosen it to the point where I can be tossed about (or sucked out of my straps). Try it - see how loose they need to be to have any hope of being sucked out of your seat without breaking your legs.
The "important thing" is to minimise and manage risk. Sure, you may need to visit the loo or whatever, but you still need to consider your safety, and the safety of the flight. That means being strapped in.
You can hardly blame the captain - who goes to work expecting to get sucked out of his or her aircraft? However, the security of his straps was clearly a contributing factor to him being sucked out of the aircraft, and I am also wondering why the AAIB didn't consider that.
The ANO clearly states that each pilot must be "secured in their seat" (look it up if you don't believe me). I suppose whether that means "trussed up" is a matter of interpretation.
What is the point in having straps if you don't use them? Sure, I remove my shoulder harnesses on longer sectors, might even slack off the lap strap a bit. However, having had a few CAT encounters in my time, I never loosen it to the point where I can be tossed about (or sucked out of my straps). Try it - see how loose they need to be to have any hope of being sucked out of your seat without breaking your legs.
The "important thing" is to minimise and manage risk. Sure, you may need to visit the loo or whatever, but you still need to consider your safety, and the safety of the flight. That means being strapped in.
You can hardly blame the captain - who goes to work expecting to get sucked out of his or her aircraft? However, the security of his straps was clearly a contributing factor to him being sucked out of the aircraft, and I am also wondering why the AAIB didn't consider that.
Last edited by Raw Data; 21st Sep 2004 at 11:27.
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Having enjoyed Tim lancasters company recently and taking the odd drop of refreshment with him i find these posts very offensive!
Tim is a fine airman, a good Captain and great character his acount of the incident is both imformative and extremely funny!
To have survived such an incident and still continue flying is a credit to the man in itself. He is currently still flying the line as an Airbus captain.
If some of you barack room lawyers had half his courage and charisma you would be trying to rubbish him on this thread!
This incident could have happend to anyone at anytime and up until this happend no one would have expected it!
These guys are hero's to have been there and survive to tell the tale. In my experience there are two types of pilots those that have made mistakes and learnt from them and those that tell lies!!!
By the way Tims impression of him trying to breath at 330kts and sub zero tempretures is worthy of an oscar!
Tim is a fine airman, a good Captain and great character his acount of the incident is both imformative and extremely funny!
To have survived such an incident and still continue flying is a credit to the man in itself. He is currently still flying the line as an Airbus captain.
If some of you barack room lawyers had half his courage and charisma you would be trying to rubbish him on this thread!
This incident could have happend to anyone at anytime and up until this happend no one would have expected it!
These guys are hero's to have been there and survive to tell the tale. In my experience there are two types of pilots those that have made mistakes and learnt from them and those that tell lies!!!
By the way Tims impression of him trying to breath at 330kts and sub zero tempretures is worthy of an oscar!
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Something else that wasn't in the film was that ATC until then had no training for aircraft emergencies! Not just a little, but nada. They were judged too rare to be worth rehearsing, so when LATCC got the first call from Alastair (hope we are not forgetting he was awarded BALPA gold medal, GAPAN award and several others including a Queen's commendation) saying Mayday, London just carried on with other traffic because the rushing air prevented Alastair from hearing him and responding.
One real interesting thing here, especially in view of contemporary concerns over maintenance at BA and generally, was that the AAIB focussed on systemic problems in the hangar. All references to the base's "drifts in standards", "poor trade practices", criticisms of the Quality Assurance, problems in self-certification, skimpy CAA inspections, etc. were excised from the draft AAIB report, or altered to put all the blame on the shift maintenance manager himself. The report, thanks to a posse of silks hired by BA, was gutted before publication.
Having gone to all that trouble to shift blame for systemic problems onto the SMM personally, why did they keep him on? Beats me. Maybe he would have blown the whistle if they hadn't.
One real interesting thing here, especially in view of contemporary concerns over maintenance at BA and generally, was that the AAIB focussed on systemic problems in the hangar. All references to the base's "drifts in standards", "poor trade practices", criticisms of the Quality Assurance, problems in self-certification, skimpy CAA inspections, etc. were excised from the draft AAIB report, or altered to put all the blame on the shift maintenance manager himself. The report, thanks to a posse of silks hired by BA, was gutted before publication.
Having gone to all that trouble to shift blame for systemic problems onto the SMM personally, why did they keep him on? Beats me. Maybe he would have blown the whistle if they hadn't.
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If I recall correctly, they were practically over Capt Lancaster's house at the time. That would have been a nasty shock for Mrs Lancaster if he had come down in the back garden (well, nasty shock for Capt Lancaster, too!).
