Ex AN pilots now in QF - the cancer within
 

I understand that a number of ex AN pilots, employed by QF over the last 2 yrs have offered to do a 'deal' with QF which would see them restored as Capt's & F/O's, outside of their present seniority (most are still S/O's and none are capts).

This deal involves undercutting the existing hourly rates by 32-36% depending on the aircraft.

Some ex A320 drivers have been manoeurving for a slot on the A330.

One individual has already wormed himself into the training section where he has become a TFO despite only minimal experience in QF.

Overall there are a lot of complaints from guys who IMHO should be grateful they have a job. What do you think would have happened if QF had collapsed and the shoe was on the other foot.

FS

...why am I not surprised!!

Not content with shafting their work colleagues and families 14 years ago, it would appear that these greedy, self-serving parasites are up to their old tricks again, trading in what they have become supremely accomplished at - scabbing!

Fcu:mad:in' lowlifes!!

The majority of the "captains" from that time got their 4 bars the quick and easy way - scabbing during an industrial dispute - and now hope to AGAIN circumvent the established system.
Have AIPA stick a training ban on them, FS. Nip it in the bud.

Fartsock

Shoe on the other foot. I think a lot more QF pilots would be in Ansett. Just the nature of the two cultures.

If true, very disappointing, and would vindicate many of the harsh words said on pprune.

You did get a few very ambitious individuals who are used to accelerated career progress. It was a relief that many of the despised managment lackies joined QF and not the hoardes who went abroad.

I did here some of your current sim instructors were confident of of a rapid rise up the ranks. Bit more smoke for you mate.

Kaptin M...ever seen 'Dr Phil' on TV? If not, I'd recomend it. He might have some words of wisdom to help you get over "things" and chill out a bit.

Please...take 10 deep breaths before you respond back;)

Fartsock,me thinks this to be either sour grapes or a wind up at best.
Judging by the allegations made about deals being done I dont recall anything being mentioned by the AIPA.
Id say the culprits would have their blood spilled on the apron already if what you say is true.

If you feel that badly about it why dont you vent your anger with those that you pay to represent yourself (AIPA if you are a member) rather than gripe and slander someone that applied for the job of a training F/O,was interviewed by the powers that be,assessed and trained by the same and found to be a suitable applicant worthy of carrying out that job.

Dont whinge about it fartsock, but give the details to your AIPA rep who will make the relevant enquiries if they feel you are justified.

Pay cuts for promotions?
I would normally tell you you're dreaming but either way go to the AIPA and sort this out.

Cut in hourly rates------must have had one the other day by taking longer than normal to perth

...let's not lose sight of the fact that Qantas itself is a scab airline!

Sad, but true!

amos2 with comments like that you only prove that you have a scab on the brain.

Sad but true!

...and, what a brilliant response that was!

scabs are in China airlines as well here. these parasites have arrived like a plauge. but the ranks are finally knowing what these bastards did in 89. how in the world can they hold their head up.


Thanks ansett for falling over, now we have these tossers here. check my post

Who ever said these guys were 89'ers anyway? They could still have joined ansett say 93-94 and easily have a command. I'm not condoning the QF thing, just the fact that they may not be scabs.

Well they're sure as hell acting like ones, MotH.

As Amos said "Lie down with dogs - get up with fleas.......where's that flea powder!!"

Most of those involved in the 1989 punch-up are probably still clutching the letter from Hawke (sent to each of us), telling those who "returned" they would be "the custodians of Australian aviation" :rolleyes:

One needs only look at the very fine job they did in taking care of Ansett, East-West, IPEC, and (the original domestic) Australian Airlines aka TAA to see where Oz aviation would be headed, left to them!

I have done a sim or twowith the above mentioned TFO and found him to be very good. There was some rumour that some ex-ansett SO's whole were rated on the 767 may go to Australian as direct entry Capt as they could not get enough other Qantas pilots with required experience to bid across. However seems academic at the moment as most slots have been cancelled for the near future. Flew with a few ex-Ansett SO's and most are just grateful to have a job rather than trying to shaft others, many even did some GA between Ansett and Qantas, seems some people are just petty and looking for a chance to fight around here.

One thing that amazes me is that scabs are welcomed into AIPA. They should be banned from membership for industrial treason.

That they seek to benefit themselves at others expense is no surprise. Same MO different company.

You guys are just wharfies with a better education.......

Kap M,

Arrr!!! So it was Hawkies letter that convinced you to apply for your job back!

As for the rest of this thread- pure, bitter, hateful and completely unsubstantiated BS spread by malcontents who STILL haven't taken responsibility for there own mistakes and gotten on with their lives.

St Johns wart and complex vitamin B are good.:{

"As for the rest of this thread- pure, bitter, hateful.. ", Wizofoz.

You're probably correct - I doubt that very few Australians would feel anything OTHER than the above....you forgot disgusted...for the underhanded actions of a small group, who are trying to circumvent a system they KNEW was in place, when they applied to, and joined QANTAS, for their own gratification, whilst undermining the entire rest of the pilot workforce.

It was your associate, phnompenkid - with whom you strongly sided, Wizofoz - who quite proudly declared that he didn't care about the repercussions on others on whom he scabbed.
Your last post is further evidence that you and your ilk still find it "surprising" that scab tactics are UNACCEPTABLE.
You really are the misfits of society in general, and the aviation domain in particular!

"..and completely unsubstantiated BS spread by malcontents", Wizofoz.
To the best of my knowledge, Fartsock is a QANTAS pilot who was not involved in 1989 - until the scablike actions of the ex-Ansett pilots now employed in his company were introduced there as well.

In fact gameboy1971, some wharfies are probably BETTER educated than some of us!! :sad:

I've flown with five ex-AN pilots and none of them are SC@Bs and I found them to be decent blokes who are happy to have a job and are prepared to wait their turn to gain a front seat again.
Considering, we have a very tightly worded Industrial Award with an extablished "Paid Rate" which prevents QF from offering lower salaries to fly the same aircraft types, I find it hard to see that the original post has any foundation.

Can anyone advise if there are any SC@Bs from AN employed by QF - by that I mean anyone who got a job with AN between Oct 89 and Mar 90. I do not consider anyone a SC@B if they obtained a job after AFAP capitulated and advised its members to try to get their jobs back.

GB

Surely this must be a beatup?!?, there would be less than 5 guys ex AN guys in QF that would have had ANY involvment in 89, except for the few sim instructers. Most were all fairly junior F/Os with AN. Don't let the truth get in the way I guess :D

So GB , you would have been prepared to let the AFAP decide when you could come back to work in '89 would you??
Bad judgement I would say!!,
I'd prefer to let the guys who saw the writing on the wall, and the foreigners lined up outside the recruiting section, and the balls to say this is f...d im out of here have a go.


It's fine to sit back on yr high horse casting judgement on who 'you consider a sc..b' blah blah blah blah, when you don't have to make the D yrself

Every airline pilot, and every pilot who joined the fray in 1989 and onwards, had a role to play in the dispute, including the AIPA.
Led from the AFAP by the weak-minded OS Branch leadership of the day, the AIPA has been merely a rollover training ground for management hungry pilots ever since, with little industrial interest for the benefit of its membership.
It simply failed to see the ramifications of '89 and the potential it had for the degradation over the long term for its members.
Now with a bunch of scabs incorporated into the membership, its coffers swell but with little output.
During 1989 the AFAP was privileged to receive individual donations from a handful of decent members of the AIPA, but they were indeed in the minority.
And as for who are " '89er's ", they are the pilots who did NOT scab, so get the context right boys.
Good night.

hey guys, it's all been said before! the scabs were the foreign low breeds that migrated out here at the invitation of Bob Hawke, Peter Abeles and Rupert Murdoch. picked up at the airport in limos, transported to the best hotel in town, wined & dined, then offered the most lucrative contracts (together with aussie citizenship) at the expense of decent aussie pilots just trying to be loyal to a misguided and naive union.
let it go lads - the war finished on the 10th october 1989. after that, the AN & TN returnees were just returning to THEIR own jobs.
The AFAP got it wrong and couldn't admit IT !!!!

My original post was not a wind up.


The TFO in question might be a 'good bloke' but he knows fu$k all about QF longhaul ops - one wonders how he is able to teach S/O's about line ops when he has done so little himself

Stand by for a senior management appointment of an ex AN A320 capt (now a PUIT).

This will neccesitate him being promoted some 800 numbers out of seniority and I understand is likely to be pushed through by the company on the basis he 'is the best man for the job'.

As for the 'offer' to the company - this is a matter of fact, known to AIPA.

Ask your COM member for a off the record quote.

I don't know if the individuals involved in this present move are 89 'heros' or not, but their present behaviour is the issue I have a problem with.

FS

Sub-Sonic et al . Your high handed drivel re AIPA and '89 belies the fact that it was NEVER AIPA's fight.

What did you expect AIPA to do? Arrange illegal secondary boycotts and get their members sued as well? Hurl themselves on the AFAP funeral pyre with mass resignations?

What? No-one has ever answered that question with a logical response.

Don't get angry at people who in no way could assist you without ending up with the same sad consequences the AFAP rank and file experienced.

Fartsock,

Which part of QF's long haul ops is he having trouble with.

Do QF do it that differently from the suggestions made by Airbus.

Is longhaul that difficult.

So, Fartsock...

Your high level conspiracy is in fact one management type being direct entered.

Not NEARLY enough revenge for you guys inflicting us with TJ!!!

Took your suggestion FS - rang AIPA - spoke to 2 Com members. They haven't heard of anything.
Are you sure ?

catp M Heavey jet guy & amos2
 

GROW UP you guys and get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me know which airlines you fly with so that I won't travel on them.
I don't want my life in the hands of poeple with your intelect!!!!!!!!!

Blo Moi
My understanding of the meaning of the word SC@B is anyone working whilst the union concerned is in dispute with the employer. Once the union terminates industrial action then those that subsequently gain employment are not SC@Bs. I consider the foreign SC@Bs the lowest form of SC@Bs especially as all the overseas ALPAs advised them of the industrial dispute.

Sub-Sonic MB
You appear to be unaware of the facts - Qantas pilots were never involved in the dispute (despite the best efforts of the then PM) however, the domestic pilots had the full support of their international peers. To my knowledge, there were four flights flown by QF on domestic routes during the dispute and these were because of humanitarian and hardship grounds. These flights were sanctioned by the AFAP otherwise they would not have been flown.
AIPA's leaders at that time were not weak minded - in fact I'd call them shrewd for not falling into the trap of taking on the full might of a hostile government, especially when we didn't have a dispute with our own company management.
Maybe you're still bitter that the Overseas Branch walked out on the AFAP. Maybe if the then AFAP leaders (mainly AN) had listened to and acted on a lot of the problems that the Overseas branch were having then the split may not have occured.

The_Cutest_of_Borg
I concur with your comments.

GB

Debating this issue is a waste of bandwidth – each camp is so firmly ensconced in its respective corner that no amount of debate will ever winkle them out to see the other’s point of view. And just to prove that point, I’ll go on here to show how deeply buried in my corner I am.


*****

This thread does serve one purpose, however – it reminds those who’d like what they did in 1989-90 to be forgotten that, despite their wishes (or earnest hopes) to the contrary, their shameful actions will never be forgotten, and by more people than they might imagine.

As for Qantas not being a scab airline. No one’s pointing that finger at the overseas branch of the airline, but on the day the (insert whatever word suits your individual opinions of the gentlemen (and ladies) in question) pilots from ex-Australian Airlines – now the QF domestic wing – Qantas sadly became an airline with quite a few scabs in its ranks.

Personally, I prefer the name coined for them right here on Pprune after some of these ‘gentlemen’ objected to being called what they were, and are, and will continue to be to the day the last of them dies. For those not familiar with the new, politically correct title for these people, it is ‘heroes’. Perhaps someone could do a search for the hilarious poem that someone wrote in an earlier thread about these ‘worthies’ that gave them the name. I was almost in tears reading it.

Since the padlock prevents me from posting on the recent China Airlines thread, if anyone from CAL gets to read this, try using the ‘hero’ name on the ones you’ve got with you now. You might be amused at the reaction.

Sounds like somebody is getting their lawns mowed.

Could not agree with you more Robair. I think it is really scary to think that individuals with such hatred after so many years are allowed in any form of free life let alone flying an aircraft. No matter who was right on wrong at the time.
I can only hope that some firm action is taken soon by either the employers or CAASA before it results in an unecessary disaster involving innocent people

Yes Raider 1, we wouldn't want anything like an evacuation carried out on an aerobridge with less than text book results now would we!!!!
Better tell CAASA or is it CASA?

Bonvol wrote this:

"One thing that amazes me is that scabs are welcomed into AIPA. They should be banned from membership for industrial treason.

That they seek to benefit themselves at others expense is no surprise. Same MO different company"


my reply is..........AND LOVING IT BUDDY!!!



:O :p :D :ok:

boocs you are an idiot

Fartsock - I think you may be confusing seniority with qualifications, experience and ability.

Irrespective of the ex Ansett drivers QF seniority, their logbooks still reflect their REAL experience. The fact that their positions as back seat drivers does not reflect this is a matter of seniority, not qualifications, experience or ability.

If QF are availing themselves of this experience in positions outside the seniority system, and these guys are the best men for the job then what are you complaining about?

Are you seriously suggesting that a less qualified and experienced person should get the job simply because he is more senior? If so why?

Perhaps QF should promote new cadets to TFO's because they 'outrank' others. Are you seriously advocating this.

I believe that QF pilots take themselves a bit too seriously in terms of the relevance of rank. It would seem to me that if Chuck Yaeger joined Qantas tomorrow he would still be looked down on by all and sundry because he was 'junior'.

Wake up call, when your airline goes broke or turfs you out, what meaning does seniority have?

Incidentally, you may also like to consider that QF has benefitted from the experience of pilots from many other backgrounds apart from Ansett, such as the RAAF, Cathay and other airlines, many of whom are in Qantas for the job and the lifestyle, not to be treated in a demeaing manner by 'fartsocks' with inferiority complexes who cling to seniority as their only means of assertion.

Powerbeat. I gather you may be one of the "heroes" involved??

One can only surmise as to what you beat with so much power.

Thanks for making my case.

Longjohn,

Good post - let me clarify.

I do not have a problem with the company leverging previous experience.

The fact that I had flown the B767 elsewhere before joining the company in the -80's was a factor in my selection. I had 2000hrs as an F/O, but accepted that part of the deal was to start at the bottom again. Such is life ect..

The 'best man for the job' principle has been applied for as long as I have been in the company, it is seen (at times) F/O's as tech and fleet managers. I don't have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem, is guys excepting employment and then, once in the company, going behind the back of the pilot body and offering to do the same job as their colleagues for less money so as to be promoted out of seniority.

The seniority system is far from perfect, but (for the moment at least) it is an equitable way of ensuring individuals get a fair go and are not subject to the nepotism and corporate politics that dog most other operators I have worked for.

In the case of the ex A320 capt who is going to be appointed to a management position, my objection is to his promotion to F/O approx 800 numbers out of seniority as part of this deal. He could do the job as an S/O if required, but the company and the pilot concerned are persuing this course of action deliberately and with malice.